Saturday, May 14, 2005

A micro version of Falluja

There is a fight now in another city in Iraq, Al-Qaim situated near the Iraqi-Syrian border. it seems to me that the story of Falluja being repeated again.
"There is a humanitarian crisis in Qaim from the fighting. There are 1,300 displaced families (approximately 80,000 people) from Qaim and the hospital there was destroyed amidst fighting on 8 May between resistance fighters and locals. On the 9th there was no electricity or water in Qaim and the surrounding areas and schools were closed. On the 11th US warplanes continued to bomb Obeidy and other nearby locations."

The complete story can be found here at this URL:

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000241.php#more

105 comments:

Anonymous said...

"The terrorists frighten and hurt the people here. They do checkpoints and patrols. Anyone they catch going to Al Qaim they will kill with a knife and throw him by the road," said the former official, who asked a Los Angeles Times reporter traveling with the Marines not to publish his name for fear that insurgents would kill him and his family ... Frankly, I don't like the American occupation," he said. "But I prefer the American occupation to occupation by Al Qaeda ... They tried to harm me because I worked for the government," the man said.

There were brown welts on his back where he had been flogged. There were small circular burns on his legs. He lifted his upper lip and revealed broken teeth. He held out his hands and displayed red lines where handcuffs had cut into his skin during eight days of captivity.

"They held me for eight days until my tribe forced them to let me go. They said that if you kill me, my tribe would kill four of Al Qaeda."

The man told the Marines that the U.S. mandate limiting each Iraqi household to one firearm and a small amount of ammunition had hindered the town's ability to defend itself. He also said Iraq's porous borders were endangering residents.

"If Americans or Iraqis close the border, the terrorists would not be able to come back," he said. "But if you leave town tomorrow, they will be back, and they will kill anyone who has helped the Americans."

Why then did he choose to speak to Marines about the insurgents who had controlled his town?

"Because they are bad guys," the man said. "Ask anyone here. These four days when the terrorists have gone have been so different from when the Americans came."

waldschrat said...

The news from Al Qaim seems confusing, but is clear that there has been hard fighting there.

One report is here;
link

I think one of the things that caused so much damage at Falluja was artillery. It's not clear that artillery was used at Al Qaim.

Ultimately it seems there was a lot of noise, a lot of people died, there are still bad people in the world, and Iraq is still a dangerous place.

Reports from Mosul recently indicate that Americans killed 8 people Friday, 3 who were apparently armed attackers and 5 in two other cars who simply frightened the soldiers. A previous report from a day or two earlier indicated an innocent Iraqi was killed in a car by an Iraqi guardsman who became frightened.

In the Watts Riots in 1965 in California, the appearance of a sign crudely drawn by soldiers saying "turn left or get shot" raised a great deal of attention. The usual image at the time of someone directing traffic was of a policeman who needed nothing but a pair of white gloves to assist him in pointing the way for cars to turn. Suddenly here was a tank and a machine gun manned by soldiers and a sign, "Turn Left of Get Shot!". People were shocked.

Now, for some unknown reason, it seems soldiers in Iraq expect to direct trafic and communicate with drivers with only a machine gun and no sign!

I have completely lost patience with the standard of safety for informal "check points" established by American and Iraqi forces. If people are expected to understand that they will be KILLED if they fail to stop, the warnings posted at such check points should be very very clear and unmistakable! If the account in a soldier's blog entry posted May 10, 2005 at this is your war is correct, it seems resources for providing such warnings are poor and people are improvising with varying degrees of success.

I wonder if it would save lives if these checkpoints were required to have clear, highly visible signs indicating what was expected of drivers. Can folks in Iraq tell me if check points are usually clearly marked?

Anonymous said...

Be helpful if Anonymous above provided a source for his/her quotes.
This "freeing Iraqis from the oppression of foreign terrorists" line just somehow doesn’t ring true to me - too reminiscent of the propaganda used to justify the Fallujah fiasco.
Does anyone know, is Qaim anywhere near Makr Al Deeb, which is close to the border? That was where the wedding party was massacred from the air back in May 2004, on the grounds that its activity was "suspected" to be infiltrating "foreign fighters."
I remember an enraged tribal relative of the victims saying on a news clip "For every one of ours, ten of theirs will die."
Infiltrating foreign Jihadis would presumably be heading for Baghdad, where the action is, not hanging around out in the boonies.
I think on logical grounds I incline towards the alternative interpretation of independent and bloody-minded locals defending their turf. Apparently Saddam couldn’t really control these guys out on the border either.
For sure the US never will - if the Marines left Fallujah tomorrow, it would be back under hard-line insurgent control the next day.
What a farce.
John

Anonymous said...

Hitech Luddite,

What you are saying is: "It's time for Iraqis to be like Americans..."

My word, what a disgusting idea... Iraqis are the descendents of the oldest civilization on Earth. Their forefathers wrote much of what we know as the "Bible" (in the Old Testament). They could read and write while our forefathers were living in caves. Why in heavens would we want to condemn them to the horrible fate of being more like Americans?...

Anonymous said...

"They told him (unconfirmed) that all of Iraq has had no electricity for several days. "

Can anyone actually in Iraq confirm this? If so, it is presumably due to terrorist activity. It is easier to destroy than to build.

Anonymous said...

Hitech says:
"Ok John so what's the answer? ... If the middle & upper class can not pull the country together ..."
I dunno how class suddenly got into the equation. TruthTeller can maybe correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that after many years of Sunni predominance, the middle and upper class are mainly Sunni? And after the last two years of bungled, disastrous occupation, they are more interested in the departure of the occupiers than in pulling the country together?
I don’t know what the answer is, but I suspect that the obtrusive presence of foreign troops in a sovereign and independent Iraq can’t be part of it. The only reason they are still there, theoretically, is to support the new government while it trains up its security forces. But its not going to be a matter of, "Aha, now we’ve got x thousand trained troops, everything will suddenly and magically come right." The place is too complicated and stuffed up for that - its going to be a long, long hard haul, with a lot of twists and bumps in the road. Is the US as a whole really committed to that? Not according to your National Guard and Army recruiting figures, surely.
John

Anonymous said...

"your government with its one ton bombs and its tanks and bulldozers and attack helicopters" I think you may be assuming I am American. Are you in Iraq? If so, can you answer my question about the electricity?

waldschrat said...

Hee's another story about the Al Qaim events:

link

Anonymous said...

Ok John so what's the answer? Let that region remain in a state of tribal warfare? A region that has access to Oil Money and Religious fundamentalism that is actively seeking to destroy the west! -Hitech

That part about "seeking to destroy the west" is simply false. They want the US authorities to stop propping up their evil, brutal dictators, especially in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. They want freedom, not the US running their countries by pulling stings behind the scenes. Same in Uzbekistan.
Susan

Anonymous said...

With such enlightened Americans as Moron99 I wonder why things are so screwed up in the US. Poverty, urban decay, oppression of minorities... Why doesn't Moron99 (and others like him) turn their attention to all that misery in their own backyard, instead of trying to "save" Iraq? Flattening the Bronx, for instance, might be more efficient than flattening Fallujah... And would keep the top military equally happy... Who knows, maybe someday an Iraqi army will land in New York to do some cleansing of their own...

waldschrat said...

TRUTHTELLER - Be Careful!

Sounds like trouble in eastern Mosul, the Dhubbat district, a good place not to be right now!

U.S. troops and militants clashed in the northern city of Mosul on Tuesday, with heavy exchanges of machine gun fire heard, according to an Associated Press reporter at the scene.

U.S. forces were seen advancing into the eastern neighborhood of Dhubbat, a known insurgent stronghold in Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad.

"Forces were attacked and called in helicopters to support them in the battle with insurgents," said U.S. military spokesman Sgt. John H. Franzen. He did not have further details.

Heavy machine gun exchanges took place in the area between militants and U.S. forces, said the AP reporter who witnessed the clashes.

waldschrat said...

Najma reports trouble nearby, broken glass. I am very worried.

Anonymous said...

Moron99 (Yessiree, Ah come from a long, long line of morons) says:
In a few years, America will have met her commitments
1) protect the people who will write a constitution
2) hold nationwide elections to ratify or reject the constitution
3) hold nationwide elections to select leaders from multi-candidate ballots
4) weaken the forces who would topple the constitutional government and strengthen those who support it.

And charge for it all, on a no-bid cost plus basis, presumably.
What if it all goes the other way? What if America gets tired of her commitments, and walks away leaving Iraq as a splintered, devastated sectarian mess. You have to admit it is possible.
(Ever hear of a place called Vietnam?) Will America proudly accept responsibility then?

TruthTeller, recent news reports refer to a reduced US presence around Mosul, only 6000 troops or so. What are conditions like there now, is there any restoration of normality and order, any sign of improvement? You need to understand that you Iraqi Bloggers, like it or not, are an important news source nowadays.
John

Anonymous said...

Moron99,

What about hopping on the next plane to Iraq and going, personally, to help all those Iraqis you seem so concerned about? There are enough NGO's that would be happy to count on a extra pair of hands to clear the rubble, to assist the wounded, to teach the children. I might then be prepared to believe in your good intentions. But then you would run the risk of becoming another item of colateral damage, isn't it?... Better stay at home and help with the war propaganda... It's definitely less dangerous, although not so heroic...

Truth teller said...

waldschrat

Thank you for asking.
Najma, HNK, and little Aya were at home together, the rest of us were in our daily business when the situation burst out. Heavy machine gunfire, mortors and helicopters missiles continued for about an two hours.
They knew what to do, as this is not the first time they expose to such events (but it is the most dangerous).
They are all OK now except for some fear and horror.
I will write more details when I have time.

Anonymous said...

Moron99,

"The US is in Iraq to protect my little slice of heaven from the next 50 years of mideast decay. I'm cool with that."

Finally some honesty. And I'm sure that all that Iraqi oil will be of some assistance in protecting your little slice of heaven... Not a bit troubled by all that "colateral damage" though?... I guess not. They are nothing but ragheads, after all...

Anonymous said...

That wasn't me.
John

waldschrat said...

The US military does not seem to present a consistent account of yesteday's events.

==============
U.S. military spokesman Sgt. John H. Franzen said American troops were investigating reports that a homemade bomb was planted in the area when they came under fire from militants.

"Forces were attacked and called in helicopters to support them in the battle with insurgents," Franzen said.

He added that U.S. soldiers reported minimal damage to the two buildings and found no injured or dead insurgents.

But Lt. Gen. Ahmad Mohammed Khalaf, commander of Mosul's police forces, told a press conference later that U.S. aircraft destroyed two homes where the militants were holed up, killing 20.

He said U.S. soldiers fought 80 militants who had fled to Mosul from Qaim, a town near the Syrian border that was the scene of a recent weeklong American military operation aimed at destroying supporters of Jordanian-born militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

A statement released earlier by U.S. and Iraqi forces in Mosul said troops detained nine suspected terrorists in separate operations Monday and Tuesday.

==============

In Sacramento I have a rental house I bought recently as an investment. On my list of repairs which I need to do on the house, there is a bullet hole in one window, apparently from some argument in the street near by. One bullet hole seems like a small thing, today.

waldschrat said...

More trouble rported in the same part of Mosul today, mortar rounds directed against a police acadamy by people with very bad aim, it seems.

========================
All of the Mosul attacks took place in the eastern part of the city, a predominantly Sunni Arab district, and four of the rounds hit its police academy but caused no injuries, police Brig. Gen. Wathiq Mohammed said.

One round landed in front of a grocer's shop in the al-Masarif neighborhood and killed the owner, said Dr. Bahaa-Eddine al-Bakri of the Jamhouri Teaching Hospital.

Another struck a car and killed its driver and injured a passenger, al-Bakri said, while seven children walking to school in the al-Jamaa neighborhood were injured by another.
===================


Truthteller, it seems your perception of a similarity between Al-Qaim and Falluja was accurate in more than one way. Both were scenes of intense violence. After both incidents, insurgents attacked police in Mosul, where they perhaps fled.

The inaccurate use of extremely powerful weapons is insane and irresponsible.

I hope you will report your situation. I am worried, and I am sure all readeers of your family's posts are also worried.

Truth teller said...

waldschrat

I saw a plastic bag in the middle of the road full of what seem to be a trash.
About one hour later a nearby bureau opened and one of the emploee saw the bag and suspected that it contains a bomb. It was infront of the buraeu no more than 15 m. a way. He called the police and told them about his suspicion. Few minutes later an American force came and inspect the bag, they started shooting fire toward the bag several times, but it didn't explode. They think it was a false alarm, they asked one of the bureau workers to go and take the bag away!!! but he refused.
At that time there were sounds of several gunshots (sound of Klashinkoof) But there is no injured or any sign of the bullets.
There is an empty house at the corner of the road about 100 m. from the American. The Americans started fire at that house heavely, then two helicopters started fire at that house also. The house suffered medium damage as Franzen said. There were no injured or dead insurgents.
I think there were no insurgent from the start. I heared this story from an eye witness who was at the spot when it happened.

"But Lt. Gen. Ahmad Mohammed Khalaf, commander of Mosul's police forces, told a press conference later that U.S. aircraft destroyed two homes where the militants were holed up, killing 20."

Either he was talking about another accident or simply he was exaggerating.

What happened at the police academy is a different srory.

The so called police academy is a buildings out side the city used by traffic police. Earlier this year it was used to train the new policemen, but not any more.
It is now a base for the Peshmerga, they made a check point there to search or inspect the cars which are going to the north. It is few Km to the north of mosul. This place were bombed several times by mortar round. What is happenning, is that every time they exposed to fire they started firing mortar rounds in all direction including toward the city of Mosul!!!!!It looks unbelievable but it is true. And always the police or the ING said that the insurgents are who fire the bombs!!! and they killed so and so. It is strange . Isn't it?

waldschrat said...

Truthteller, "strange" is not the word, what it sounds like is lunacy, utter madness. It is not sane to use weapons against a target which is not clearly identified. It is not sane to waste ammunition shooting an empty house. It is not sane to spend two hours shooting with machine guns and rockets, then find that nothing worth shooting can be found to have been hit. It is not sane to kill people and injure children who were never reasonable targets for anybody. It is all madness.

Truth teller said...

This is an important article I found today about the late events happened in Iraq, and the expected outcome.
here

Anonymous said...

Moron99 reminds me of a saying in my country which goes as follows: "Those who know study, those who don't know teach"... He is personified ignorance, always full of useless advice, offensive in his arrogance. The typical "ugly American" whose only competence is strengthening the world's distaste for the US...

Anonymous said...

From the International Herald Tribune:

"U.S. military commanders in Baghdad and Washington have given a sobering new assessment of the war in Iraq, adding to the mood of anxiety that prompted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to make a trip to Baghdad last weekend for talks with Iraq's new government.

In interviews and briefings Wednesday, the generals pulled back from recent suggestions - including those by some of the same officers - that positive trends in Iraq could allow a reduction in the 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq late this year or early in 2006.

One senior officer suggested Wednesday that U.S. military involvement could last "many years."

Strange, no word about the Iraqi government and their position on this... Could it be that Americans might be considering staying in Iraq even against the new government's wishes?...

waldschrat said...

Truthteller -
The best maps of Mosul that I have found online are here:
Mosul Maps Link

Do you know of any better maps?

Some of the things on the map are fascinating!

I found two areas southeast of Mosul University identified as "Nineveh Ruins".

West of Mosul University, near the Tigris River, I found an area identified as "Mintaqat Ghabat Ninawa (Nineveh Woods)", with three restaurants or cafes nearby and an amusement park to the south.

South of the university, and near the ruins, there is even a place identified as "Tourist Administration", on Al Humiyan Street. Different portions of this same street are identified as "An Nabi Yunus Street" and "Ashur Banibal Street" - perhaps the map maker asked people along the street what it was called and everybody told him something different.

It seems clear from the presence of several rivers in the city that it is largely flat land, good country for riding a bicycle because there are few steep hills. I wonder if many people ride bicycles in Mosul.

waldschrat said...

Aha, there ARE people in Iraq crazy enough to ride bicycles!

link

Anonymous said...

Truthteller:
You posted a link earlier to Dahr Jamail. He seems to be on a roll, and has posted several more articles since then, in both his Weblog and Hard News sections. The story of the blinded girl is very sad. What he reports (admittedly second-hand) about Al Qaim is interesting.
But I was very impressed by his report about the Iraqi truck drivers in Jordan, the sort of things they were saying. Can you comment on their comments? Is this what lots of people are saying in Mosul?
John

Anonymous said...

@Truth Teller & all.

I find this remark by 'Strykerdad' (5/19/2005 08:02:50 PM) about what's happening in Mosul absolutely incredible, and up to now nobody seems to have noticed it: "The American shelling is radar guided response to a brief increase in rocket and mortar fire from the Sunni dominated areas of Mosul. Some 'innocents' may have been killed or injured, but if you see people setting up rockets and mortars in your neighborhood and do nothing about it - well just how innocent are you? Might provoke a little neighborhood watch from the 'neutral' residents".

The man (possibly the father of a US soldier in Iraq) is candidly spilling the beans: the US military DOES violate on purpose the Geneva Convention (the original one, the one it signed back in 1949).

To consider a district in a city a 'legitimate target' because the population harbours 'insurgents' or guerrillas is explicitly forbidden the Geneva Convention, as is reprisal or retaliation on the civilian population.

To admit, like this 'Strykerdad' does, that they freely kill & injure civilians ("well just how innocent are you?", this criminal says, forgetting that the point is not the political sympathies of the victims, but if they are combatants or not) in order to compel them to turn against the insurgency is incredibly cheeky, but at least, for once from a warmongerer, honest.

@Strykerdad:
Have you ever thought that if your 'Strykerson' were to come home minus some paws, or in a coffin, he wouldn't be a maimed or fallen 'American Hero' (LOL), but just a maimed or fallen WAR CRIMINAL?
Ever heard of the Nurnberg trial?

Anonymous said...

Strykerdad is a perfect example of a dumb American trying to sound intelligent. The fact that back in the 40's we had reason to be grateful to the US for the assistance given against nazi Germany, doesn't mean that we have to agree with any later idiotic actions by your country. In matter of fact, since the collapse of the Soviet Union your behaviour has been consistently appalling, bordering on the criminal. This second Iraqi war is by far the most disgusting American action in a long time. And the most disgusting thing is the fact that you have absolutely no idea of the crimes you are committing. Maybe the fact that the US served mainly as a dump for the garbage we had in Europe explains why violence is the only language you seem to understand. Balls you may have, but they are a poor substitute for brains...

waldschrat said...

It doesn't make much sense to me to pqint entire nations, populated by millions of unique individuals, with a broad brush, pretending they are all of the same color and character. In every population there are good people and bad people, smart people and stupid people, beautiful people and ugly peple. The fiction that entire nations think with the same mind and act with the same will is an attractive delusion and typical of the rhetoric of fascists and fools.

Anonymous said...

@Srykerdad.

"And so far as judging who is a hero or a criminal - do you really think an Italian would be the authority on such matters?".

The authority, Strykerdad, in this case is the Geneva Convention, 1949 (not an Italian or anybody else; & it's a matter of obscene criminals, not of 'heroes' here).
BTW, the military occupier of a country, according to the same Geneva Convention, is legally responsible for any damage or casualty inflicted on the civilian population.

To answer to guerrillas with 'radar guided shelling' on a city district inhabited by non combatants is, precisely, a war crime according to the Geneva Convention.
The last ones who did something of the kind in Europe before the Yugoslav conflict were the Nazis in Warsaw, 1944. They ended up at the Nuremberg trials, and those doing the same in Yugoslavia ended up at the Hague court. Sooner or later Bush, Cheney and your military will suffer the same fate.

So the US military and Administration are WAR CRIMINALS, according to the Geneva Convention, and like you yourself admitted.

Your son in Iraq is indeed a WAR CRIMINAL, and you an advocate of war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Can you deny it, Strykerdad?

And, again, do consider what Hurria tells you: you have no right whatsoever to kill ANY Iraqi.
BTW, on the crap on the oh so wonderful 'nation building' in Iraq that Moron keeps ranting about, it IS another illegal act, according to the same Geneva Convention, where 'nation building' of any kind is explicitly forbidden.

Apart from all that, you convalidate Albatroz about the brainlessness of you warmongering Americans & of your military. Like Hurria (and the British military, and any human child older than seven) remarked, your brilliant theory of 'maximum force protection, maximum infliction' is not just criminal according to the Geneva Convention, but self-defeating, because you create in that way more & more enemies, and as a consequence the security of your military gets more & more compromised, with increasing losses. You truly do not seem to have the thought processes of all human beings.

Anonymous said...

@Srykerdad.

You quoted John Stuart Mill, "A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself".

To whom does it apply to? To your beastly, brainless & cowardly soldiers, invading a country thousands of miles afar for no legitimate or just reason at all?

Methinks it is instead dawning on all Iraqis that the sentence does indeed apply to them; and more and more Iraqis will join the ranks of the patriotic resistance, because they are realising that kicking the criminal American invaders out is indeed the only way & chance to be free.

Anonymous said...

Again, Strykerdad:

"I do not believe American forces are maiming and killing innocents any more than is unfortunately necessary to end the insurgency".

Maiming and killing innocents is a WAR CRIME, regardless of any supposed 'necessity'; and according to the Geneva Convention it is even a worse crime when committed in a country by the occupying power.

I'm quite happy that you warmongering apes are more & more showing your true (Nazi) colours for all the world to see; your words, Strykerdad, counter most effectively all the lies touted by Moron99, Lisa-NY, and other disingenuous propagandists.

Go on, Strykerdad, please!

Anonymous said...

@Strykerdad,
"you are wrong on all accounts. The proof is that there is absolutely no legitimate accusations of such violations before any court anywhere or the UN. Name one documented case of civilians being deliberately targeted..."

Are you getting chicken, or what? Since the US did refuse (and it is quite obvious why, given what they are doing around the world) to be under the jurisdiction of ANY international court, the accusations are there alright, to international courts and in front of the magistrates of different countries, but it is unlikely that the US defendants will be brought in front of the courts any time soon.

A couple of cases of "civilians being deliberately targeted", just the thinnest tip of a huge iceberg?
What about the cousin of another Iraqi blogger, Zeyad, who was beaten up and then drowned into the Tigris river by an American patrol?
Or what about the two unlucky Iraqi civilians who were shot in the back (these cowardly 'American Heroes', LOL) by Lt Pantano?
What about Fallujah, Najaf, and now Qaim?

Anonymous said...

@Strykerdad.
"If American forces had denied civilians the ability to leave that area, they would be violating the Geneva Conventions".

That's precisely what the US military, by their own admission, did in Fallujah in October/November 2004. They decided, against precisely the Geneva Convention, that no male between 14 & 65 years of age could leave the besieged city (!!!).
Most families were compelled in that way to stay on, being caught in the US onslaught.

Have you got the cheek to deny it?

Anonymous said...

Or, to put it another way, if Strykerdad was living in Nazi Germany, he would call himself Stukadad.
Good grief, man! You claim that it wasn't about oil, or WMD or links with Al Quaeda, or profits for Halliburton, oh no, it was all about bringing "freedom and democracy" to the benighted Iraqis.
You've been there for over two years now, and the one thing that is clear is that the overwhelming majority of the benighted Iraqis hate your presence and can't wait to see the back of you. Your troops haven't been ambassadors for freedom and democracy, or for kindness or fairness or justice or friendliness or humainty. They've just been alien stormtroopers.
Not a single one of them, after two years, could walk unarmed down a single street in the whole of Iraq.
The British in the South have done it ten times better with their "minimum force" military doctrine, and even then they're only being tolerated until they leave, which probably will be quite soon.
Could it be that, basically, you're just nasty people? Bullies?
John

Anonymous said...

Stukadad.
Presumably you see no possiblility of "American Survival" if the Americans just stayed home in their own country, and minded their own bloody business, like everybody else in the world does?
At least until they've managed to train up a halfway competent humane, responsible, likeable, fair and friendly military, if they must blunder around trying to put the rest of the world to rights?
John

Anonymous said...

Stukadad
Well despite your lunatic rhetoric about "smoking holes" you are not really going to nuke the Islamic world into terrified submission, all 1.2 billion of them. You are not really going to conquer any more Islamic countries, like Iran. You've failed miserably in the one you've tried. Keep trying, you'll just get more 9/11's.
If there were no US bases and fleets in the Arab world, they would just ignore you and you could ignore them.
Has China or Europe got bases in South America? Has India or Russia got bases in Africa? Why not just stay home - the Cold War's long over, why launch into a new one?
John

Anonymous said...

Stukadad
So since you can't nuke the Arab world into submission, and since they show little sign of being impressed by bullying bluster, the only solution is a state of perpetual war between the US and them? And a thousand more Fallujahs, right?
John

waldschrat said...

OK, I've mentioned before that it's preferable to use nonviolent forms of protest, and Hurria has happily told me that US troops happily shoot protesters, but here's a dandy piece of nonviolent protest in action that may give Hurria and others a warm chuckle.

Link

Admittedly it perpetuates the "U.S. vs Islam, Islam vs the U.S." delusion which the fanatics would like to sell, but it's nonviolent and therefore I offer it as a constructive example.

Anonymous said...

Time differences and the fact that I do other things besides writing in this blog made me miss some of the "pearls" produced by Strykerdad and others.

In the first place I wish to apologize for generalizing my criticism of Americans. It was dumb and the fruit of my anger at the few pompous fools who think it right to kill innocent people. Who quote J. S. Mill forgetting that Iraqi insurgents are the living proof that there are certain things it is worth fighting and dying for: namely the freedom of your people and country.

Fortunately there are many Americans who feel like I do about this war, who write regularly about it, who call Bush what he really is - a criminal fascist. They may be a minority, for now. But I hope they will once more make the US a free and democratic country, worthy of our friendship and respect. Meanwhile we are entitled to vent our anger at the likes of Strykerdad, who deserve suffering the pains they are criminally inflicting on others.

Anonymous said...

Picked on the internet, written by an Iraqi:

"Thank you Americans (those who believe that American troops are destroying Iraq). Those who believe that facts cannot be hidden with chicken mesh. Who believe they have no right to put ideas in the minds of people of a civilized country, a country in which civilization began before the United States existed. Those people who know that democracy is not given, it is obtained. Who know that Iraqis are people who have to live just like any nation. Who believe that we are no different in the ability of our minds because God made us all so you cannot force us to have the ideas of others unless we accept it after we are fully contented. Those people of the world who raise their voices against colonialism, control, force, the invading of other countries… I thank them, I encourage them, and I ask God to save them.

"Other people of the world who are not on these ethics, who don't implement those ideas, I call them to look around themselves, to awaken themselves, to put themselves in our position. To face what we face, to remember that they don't accept in any way to be insulted, nor to be threatened or killed like what is happening in my country by the invaders. I ask God to spare any difficulty from their country rather than being invaded.

"…Is there anyone in the world who can accept to be killed? Or detained for no reason? Is there any of you who can accept to be put in the situation we are facing, to see their houses crashed or demolished, ended, to see your people treated with no respect, to have guns aimed at them wherever they go, to live without electricity when you used to have it, to see roads closed… whether they will live until tomorrow under a normal life, these are, my friends, just a few things to be told.

"So please tell your friends and people to raise their voices to pull the troops out from invaded Iraq. Seeking that God helps Iraqis to bare the situation done by the troops of the invaders."

Anonymous said...

Please, Strykerdad, look at these pictures:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
images/vv3.bmp

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
images/vv1.bmp

Anonymous said...

Trying again,

Link discussing WSJ op/ed

waldschrat said...

There has been much talk of polls. Here are some questions for the posters in this forum.

1. Which did more damage, (a) the military actions against Falluja and Najaf or (b) the looting all across Iraq after the fall of Baghdad and subsequent sabotage by insurgent forces?

2. Who has killed more Iraqis, (a) insurgent/resistance fighters or (b) U.S. forces?

3. Which leader is morally superior, (a) George Bush, (b) Saddam Hussein, or (c) Mahatma Ghandi.

4. Would it be better for Iraq if U.S. forces left (a) today, (b) as soon as a constitution is approved and a government elected, (c) as soon as the Iraqi government tells them to go, or (d) never.


My answers would be b-a-c-c. I'd be curious what others would answer.

waldschrat said...

Hurria -


The fighting broke out before noon as about 2,000 members of al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Amy marched toward the cleric's local office, which is near the governor's headquarters.

Armed men guarding the headquarters shot toward the crowd in an apparent bid to disperse it, prompting retaliatory fire from al-Sadr supporters.

An official from Nasiriyah General Hospital, speaking on customary condition of anonymity, said four policemen and four civilians were wounded. Another nine al-Sadr supporters were injured, said Sheik al-Khafaji, an official at al-Sadr's Nasiriyah office.



How were the cops injured by the peaceful protesters? Why did the guy at the hospital differentiate between civilians and Sadr supporters? As I have said before, Hurria, when you have something to offer besides bullshit and insults I will listen to you.

Anonymous said...

Moron99,

On the entrance to Auschwitz one could read: "Arbeit macht Frei". To those who can't read German or do not know history, this means : Work makes us free. Oppression as told by the oppressors is always freedom, so no wonder that marines will always tell of the great things they have done in Fallujah for its inhabitants. To use such blatant propaganda as an argument in favour of American occupation would be laughable, were it not so tragic. I prefer independent reports, such as those published by Dahr Jamail, an American journalist who risks his life everyday to report to us uncensored news about Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Question:

Why is it that no non-American has ever posted on this blog any comment favourable to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq? We have had posts from people from many countries in the world and not a single non-American has ever joined Moron99, Strykerdad and Waldschrat in support of the American actions. Why not?

cile said...

Well, i guess everyone should figure out for her or himself if, and if yes, what are exactly mentionable positive developments
_caused_by_the_americans_ in iraq. It all has to do with contemporaneous awareness in and outside Iraq about the variety of 'managing' situations/places/interests in Iraq, and the consequences for PEOPLE. So i re-posted Peter Maass's last article about Americans' Salvador-like 'counterinsurgency options' on Streamtime --> http://streamtime.org//index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=476&blogId=1

or you can go direct to Peter Maass's (NYT-published article) blog "The Salvadorization of Iraq?" --> http://www.petermaass.com/core.cfm?p=1&mag=123&magtype=1
all the best

Anonymous said...

From the American press:

"KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — President Hamid Karzai called on Saturday for control of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan and demanded the United States take strong action against soldiers who abuse prisoners, following a report of alleged maltreatment of detainees at the main U.S. base here.

Karzai said he was "shocked" by allegations of abuse by poorly trained U.S. soldiers made by the New York Times in its Friday edition. The report cited a 2,000-page confidential file on the Army's criminal investigation into the deaths of two Afghans at the Bagram base in December 2002.

Karzai said he will bring up the issue when he meets American leaders during a four-day visit to the United States starting Saturday.

"We want the U.S. government to take very, very strong action to take away people like that are working with their forces in Afghanistan," Karzai told reporters before leaving Kabul. "Definitely ... I will see about that when I am in the United States."

He also demanded greater control over U.S. military operations here, including a stop to raids by American troops on Afghans' homes without the knowledge of his administration.

"No operations inside Afghanistan should take place without the consultation of the Afghan government," the president said."

Some "liberators"...

Notice the comment on "allegations of abuse by poorly trained U.S. soldiers"... Poorly trained, incompetent, ignorant, etc....

Anonymous said...

Several posts above, Stukadad says:
"The Sunnis do not feel defeated, which is due to the lack of will on the part of coalition forces to truly defeat them in a ruthless, decisive way. They will be have to join in the elected government of Iraq or be eliminated, either while American forces are there or after they leave.
They will learn to accept the concept of equality or cease to exist."
Ach so! Now ve know vere ve stand! Eliminate all ze troublesome Sunnis, just like ze troublesome Jews in Deutschland! Female ones too, ozervise zey vill breed!
Goodbye Truthteller, goodbye Najma and Hnk, sorry but you gotta go! Seig Heil!
I feel sick.
John

Anonymous said...

Moron99,

"The greatest sin of all is to kill in the name of God."

But I suppose it is alright to kill in the name of "democracy", specially if it is the American type of democracy...

Moron99, sometimes you sound like a religious nut, sometimes like a CIA employee, most of the times like the bloody idiot you have proven to be. Do you actually have any friends in the US? Or do you come here because you have noone to talk to?...

Anonymous said...

Stukadad.
Well, certainly part of the solution would be for people who claim not to be homicidal Nazis to stop sounding like homicidal Nazis.
These Sunnis who must be "eliminated" or "cease to exist" are at least 70% women and young children, just like Americans.
Truthteller is trying to reach out, to bridge the gap between Iraqis and Americans.
How do you think he feels to hear you, as a representative American, casually condemning so may innocents to death?
(Except it now turns out you didn't mean exactly what you said, only half of it, apparently.)
Like I say, perhaps the first step in a solution might be for people like you to moderate your language.
And your thinking. You may have some legitimate reason, perhaps even a personal reason, to hate Iraqi "insurgents," maybe a few thousand of them (although personally I suspect its mainly sour grapes because your conquest of Iraq has turned out all wrong.)
But you have no reason to hate 5 million people of Sunni extraction, the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives, like Truthteller and his daughters, and who have never harmed you personally and doubtless never will.
"Eliminate!" "Cease to exist!" It sure sounds like Himmler and Goebbels to me!
John

waldschrat said...

hurria -

No doubt the incident is entirely the fault of the demonsrators and not of the guards who initiated it by firing on a peaceful crowd. By the same logic,of course, the violence and carnage in Iraq is all the fault of "insurgents" for reacting to the Americans' violent attack...


By any logic the incident is regretable. Good police methods would have been able to control a non-violent crowd without gunfire. Good demonstration organizers would have ensured no weapons were carried by participants to provoke and justify police gunfire. I assume neither side started the day wanting things to conclude as they did, with gunfire and bullet wounds.

I concede your point that the invasion of Iraq may have been an indirect cause of the incident. I only ask that you consider that this might be a somewhat imperfect example of a "peaceful protest". Perhaps the marchers would have gotten less press coverage if there had been no gunfire, but certainly the related movement to paint US flags on the ground to be tread upon got worldwide coverage without the use of weapons. I continue to contend that non-violent protest is a viable method of producing political change.

I appreciate your sharing your viewpoint, Hurria. Thank you.

waldschrat said...

Another potentially hopeful sign of nonviolent political action seems to be manifested in the meeting of Sunni folks in Baghdad.

Link

Anonymous said...

Strykerdad,

"the history of the last century was largely made better because of simplistic american ideals"

Helas! With the exception of American intervention in WW II (and it took more than two years and the Pearl Harbour attack to enlighten you about the evils of nazism) your actions in the 20th century were an unmitigated disaster. There may have been idealistic Americans, but your policies were exclusively moved by self-interest. Your actions in Central and South America, for instance, have been pure imperialism. Your Vietnam intervention simply criminal. Your Middle East policies have been directed exclusively at controlling an essential power source. "Democracy" has been the smokescreen to fool people like you, who risk losing two children to protect oil interests which are not yours.

"I hate the insurgents for a personal reason, I despise the former Saddam regime because I am human, and hope for a free and prosperous Iraq"

I never cease to be amazed at the way Americans become so outraged about the fate of poor Iraqis at the hands of criminal Saddam Hussein, but then find it justifiable to kill a few tens of thousands of those same pooor Iraqis (many of them innocent civilians, women and children), as a means to "liberate" Iraq... And at the way those same Americans can be so careless about the suffering of some of their own. I'm sure Strykerdad loses no sleep over American urban decay, about innercity poverty, about discrimination of racial minorities, about inequality of opportunities for so many poor Americans. Dictator Saddam was a thorn on your side, but fascist Bush is a hero.

Are we supposed to believe all this hypocrisy?...

waldschrat said...

Hurria -

You said "The demonstration organizers included a small number of armed militia members to provide protection in case the demonstrators were attacked."

Please understand that in this country (USA) that sort of thing would be unthinkable. Although there are private security forces, they usually carry no firearms and rely on summoning the police when necessary. Only in banks and on armored cars carrying large amounts of money do private security forces usually carry firearms.

So, in America cops are expected to protect protest marchers as well as ensure that protests do not become destructive riots. That's the theory anyway.

I have no desire to say that the guards who fired on the crowd were in the right. The proper, accepted way to handle a potentially dangerous situation involving a crowd is to get a BIG bunch of cops to stand in a line wearing "riot gear" (helmets, shields, etc) and block them, or build a fence or barricade, or use water hoses or tear gas, NOT to shoot them.

Similarly, the proper way to deal with armed men is not to scare them. Trust me, I am quite careful not to scare American cops.

So, from my point of view and based on what little I know, both sides screwed up.

You said "What prompted the sudden change of tone?"

Tone is hard to judge in written communication, but your last posts seem to have addressed the facts and reflected your views and you didn't go out of your way to belittle me. I consider you a smart person (for some unknown reason I visualize you as a mature, educated Iraqi lady). Simply put, when I said "when you have something to offer besides bullshit and insults I will listen to you" I meant it. I have no desire to compete in a flame war. I do have a desire to understand events in Iraq. If I could change things there for the better I would. The only way I can imagine of doing that right now is to try to point out that nonviolent action is a theoretically viable way of achieving change and preferable to violent methods. So that's what I try to do.

Anonymous said...

An American view on an American blog:

"We lost this one. We lost this one 2 years ago, especially since we were never planning on winning [against an insugency], we were planning on leaving. Kill Saddam, chunk out the Baathists, install Chalabi, adios friendly Iraqis peoples, we are off to Syria.

Now we're hung up on this stupid notion that we owe the Iraqis a democracy, even though we are losing the car bomb and IED election by a landslide. Stupid.

I can't describe it as depressing simply because I knew this is more or less how this would come out. When you have no hope in that quarter its hard to be disappointed.

Far more depressing is that we're wasting our army and leaving a lot of pointlessly dead Iraqis for nothing and our elites are too goddamn stupid to do what has to done.

Dumb and dumber!"

I'm glad to see they are not all "Morons" overthere...

waldschrat said...

On the subject of contamination of drinking water, I have the impression that folks in Iraq are accustomed to drawing water from the municipal supply using pumps.

The only way to ensure that sewage does not infiltrate into the municipal system is to maintain the water pressure above that of the adjacent ground water! Privately operated pumps drawing directly from the municipal mains can defeat this goal!

Usually water usage peaks in the summer. Water pressure in mains may drop due to high demand.

Truthteller, do you usually see more disease attributable to contaminated water in the summer?

Anonymous said...

Another American view on the same American blog:

"It is extremely tragic to see so much death and destruction in Iraq being basically shrugged off as either no big deal or even as proof of the success of the mission by claiming the insurgents are desperate because they are losing. What is worse in some ways is that the way this is seen inside America and the indifference of most Americans versus outside of America, and the apparent callousness/indifference of the American public to these events under their government's responsibility is not doing America any favours. Bad enough that America let itself be conned into this war, that America cannot even appear to be bothered by the continuing deterioration in Iraqi deaths and injured only reinforces the image that only American lives matter, anyone else is expendable and not worthy of consideration. This doesn't exactly jibe with the image Bushco is trying to sell, of course. That image is of an America more willing to respect other countries and peoples, so it is claimed by Bushco these days. So yet again we see where reality and image/perception as described by this Administration are in total contradiction with each other."

I'm feeling a little better. We may have real people to talk to, in the US...

Anonymous said...

One more:

"Pretty soon we'll have tossed half a trillion dollars at the Iraqi ulcer that we've currently given ourselves, with the largest, most powerful, and most advanced military the world's ever seen-- supported by more spending than almost all other countries combined-- and yet we'll still be facing defeat at the hands of just tens of thousands of relatively poorly-equipped, yet fanatically determined insurgents. Vietnam was never so damaging to us as a defeat in Iraq would be, yet that's precisely the direction in which we're proceeding."

Strykerdad, Moron99, what are you going to do to those miserable unpatriotic Americans?...

Anonymous said...

I'm enjoying it more and more:

"One "wins" a war against an enemy. What we were promised in Iraq by Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld was a battle (which we won, no doubt about it), followed by a liberation, a brief occupation, and a big thank-you letter from the Iraqi people as our troops went home.

If one is fighting to "win" against the people one was supposed to be liberating, one has already lost. Pointing this out is in fact a Citizen's patriotic duty."

Why didn't I think of this earlier? It is a lot simpler to use American arguments against Americans, and we do not risk being called no-balls Europeans...

Anonymous said...

Hurria-

You process the same vast quantity of BullFood here that you did at the Kadhim site. Amazing how productive you are.


Shirin

waldschrat said...

hurria -

Although I seem to recall mention of pumps in several posts and/or news stories the only link I can offer is the following:

Link

I think you and Truthteller also mentioned infiltration of sewage into the water supply. That kind of thing simply doesn't happen if the pressure in the water mains is high enough. In U.S. systems, typical pressure in water mains is 60 pounds per square inch (PSI) or higher, and design guidelines call for maintaining at least 20 PSI even in emergencies when fire trucks are pumping from the mains, with maximum verlocity in the pipes no greater than 10 feet per second to prevent siphoning effects. In systems operated at such pressures, water always flows OUT through leaks, never IN. Thus, sewage can not and does not contaminate drinking water.

waldschrat said...

hurria -
You said "Don't you see any dissonance there at all? Don't you see how difficult it is to take your devotion to nonviolent political action seriously when it is so clearly ok with you for your country to further its political goals by launching a massively violent war of aggression?"

I did not start this war, I never advocated invading Iraq, and I have always regretted that matters could not have been handled by diplomatic means. I have no control over it, except through words. When I was drafted into the U.S. military in the Viet Nam era I applied for and was reluctantly granted concientious objector non-combattant status.

All of that is irrelevant to the question of whether a person in Iraq should pick up a gun or a picket sign, a bomb or a ballot. Regardless of my beliefs and preferences, U.S. forces are on Iraqi soil. There are also a lot of violent insurgents. They seem to be killing more Iraqis than Americans. Their actions are also the main justification for the continued presence of American forces.

Suggesting that it is clearly ok with me for my country to launch a massively violent wars of aggression is inaccurate. It is also irrelevant to the question of whether it is more productive for an Iraqi (or anybody anywhere) to use violent or non-violent methods to try to achieve change.

Anonymous said...

hurria-

You of all people should come with a disclaimer. "I live and raise my children in the USA."

Wonderful to have people like you here. Shame that you are so negative, however. But certianly you add to the great mix of this country.

Shirin

Anonymous said...

@Stukasdad or Strykerdad, 5/21/2005 04:05:06 AM.

Dear four-handed mad criminal, you wrote: "And eventually the entire Middle East will have to make that choice - the Islamofascists forced that choice upon everyone. We can no longer coexist and they choose to be our enemy, it will be resolved eventually. I know which side I'd bet on - lot of history to base that choice upon".

I'm very sorry, mad ape Stukasdad, but you are slightly mistaken, it seems. If you were a human being, I think I would call you a Fascist or a Nazi; but it seems that (like many of your ilk, including, here, those other ludicrous & lying beasts Moron99 & Resident Anon) this disgusting novel species of the Americopithecus Bellicus has got, in its very fabric (not out of any ideology), crazy arrogance and violent hubris.

Yes, of course what you say mirrors precisely what Adolf Hitler said in a famous 1939 speech (just substitute to your funny word 'Islamofascists' the word 'Jews' or 'Jewry', and everybody will see that your entire rant copies, word by word, the one by your master Hitler).

Only that you are completely mistaken, Stukasdad, when you puke out "lot of history to base that choice upon".

Your pal Adolf Hitler got defeated; and similar criminal idiots were defeated in Vietnam.
Do you remember, dear Stukasdad, the 30th of April 1975, your creepy Ambassador Martin flying away from Saigon like the rat he was, your disgusting star&striped rag of crime under his arm? "Lot of history" indeed.
That's why we side with the Iraqi patriots, against you, deluded beasts.

Here in Europe nobody gives a damn about your imaginary 'Islamofascists' (there may be Fundamentalist Muslim fanatics bent on doing crazy things, but the police & intelligence services are paid to stop them), and everybody knows that your grotesque 'War On Terror' is just your lurid attempt to conquer the world.

By now everybody knows the plans of your silly Neo-Con leadership; for sure, "it will be resolved eventually", if the worse comes to the worse, with your total defeat, and with the present US of America under the military occupation of the armed forces of the rest of the world, and a sharp re-education program to turn the apes (like you are) back into people (it will be harder than with the Germans post 1945, I'm afraid).

In the meanwhile, I do strongly suspect that your son may well come back to you paralised from the neck down, & your daughter in charred bits, due to the resistance of the human beings of Iraq (nobody wants to be lorded over by mad apes); will you keep ranting on, shameful beast Strykerdad?


@Albatroz: Stop apologizing to the American people. Those who are 'people' in the US know very well that what we say is not addressed to them. We do sympathyze with the people of America, at present & in the past few decades un fortunately under the heel of apes, and we do obviously hope that they will manage to regain the upper hand, & send those beasts to a final scrapyard.

waldschrat said...

Hurria -
I don't completely understand the water systems of Iraq, but I am beginning to believe that they are operated very differently from those in the U.S.

In the U.S., individual houses in a city typically do not have their own water pumps. Water is pressurized only by large pumps operated by the city water department. In some cases water is de=iverted from rivers in the mountains and pressurized by gravity rather than pumps, but there is never a need to pump water from the city's pipes to supply a dwelling. Sometimes skyscrapers need pumps, but this is only to get water to the top floors. People on farms who rely on wells for water also use pumps, but never individual homes in the city.

It sounds like individual homes in Iraq need pumps to draw water from the city water system. If this is not a recent development, and it seems it is not, it tells me most water systems in Iraq operate at much lower pressure than those in the U.S., presumably by design. If correct, this is clearly the reason drinking water can become contaminated in Iraq. I can only guess at the true nature of the city water systems in Iraq, but it is possible they may have evolved from systems installed many centuries ago which operated with no pumps or electricity at all and conveyed water entirely by gravity flow. Such technology dates back to Roman times. It would be consistent with low pressures in the city water pipes.

A system operating at higher pressure like in the U.S. rarely suffers from contamination unless the initial condition of the water delivered to the pipes is bad. Any leak in a pipe results in water flowing out, not in, so contamination can not occur.

If water comes out of the tap in Iraq without turning on the house's pump, turning on the pump may cause water in the city main to become contaminated. However, if water never comes out of the tap unless the pumpis turned on, using the pump will probably not make things much worse.

It would be a huge project to replace all the water supply piping in Iraq, of course.

Truth teller said...

@warmongers,

Whatever you say to justify your war crimes in Iraq will not help. Here, we see every day, the crimes committed by the American troops and the allied Iraqis forces. We hear alot of your lies especially when you try to adhere crimes done by you or your allied forces to the insurgency. We know that many of the terrorists are made according to your programs. Did you ever hear about the Salvador-like 'counter insurgency options'? you commited to loot the face of the insurgency in that country? and so you do here, but we are aware of that and this will not succeed with us.
We don't believe in your lies when you say that "the American forces are not killing innocents anymore than necessary to end the terrorists". We heared and saw many victims, who had been shot by American soldiers, or targeted by helicopter rockets against their cars, or their cars hit by the American strykers, killing the passengers without even stopping to aid them. You regard those victims as collateral casualities! . You suggest the solution is "to cooperate in every way possible to rid their area of the enemy." Yes that is right, of our enemy, not of yours.

Did you know how many times the precise radar guided mortar fire hit the houses of innocent people? Or a car killing a whole family? Is it your source that misleads you? Or is it just you making a cheap propoganda?

The Iraqi insurgents believe in the quote "A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free" so they endanger their lives to free their country from the invaders. Not thinking in their personal safety. Their aim is a free Iraq.

Did you listen to yourself when you justified your illegal war against a free country??
"It is about a region mired in a radical, backward philosohy which has access to money and the potential to buy weapons they could use to destroy Western Civilization as they seem to feel is their duty to do."

You punished people or a country just because they have the potential to buy weapons? Are you really a human or another creature from outside this planet?

Did you forget what you did with the native inhibitance of America, the American Indian? The world did't forget, neither the Americans indian.

Here is a post by one of your victims! an American Indian. You may find it worth thinking about:

"It's rageous to see the total ignorances posted by these so called americans to your life there and your own experiences. Being as the american people as a collective group, cannot fathom their true selves, I am not shocked at what they are saying. Appalled, but not shocked. They as a collective group (the real thinking ones of their so called country are in a minority)are blind, ignorant, arrogant, pompous, intolerant, racist, psychopathologic in their values of greed, backstabbing, shallowness, inability to REALLY think, violent, sexually obsessed, moronically rabid in thinking themselves righteous at any cost and in general a truly selfish and unloving group of humans without empathy nor strong cultural values of any kind. In fact, I believe they have a particular pathology I would call "culture envy", as their history is one long history of perpetual Genocide against any grouping of peoples of color they have deemed inferior. All the world knows they made slaves of the Black peoples of Africa they drug here in misery and death - to my mind - their grandest personal characteristics: misery and death, as I said. All their dealings with the Hispanic peoples are also recorded, though not in its entirety, due to so many of the thousands upon thousands who did not surive their vampiric assaults upon their latin cultures. The Japanese who were interred right here in the so called "democracy" of usa, in those prison camps, as well as the Germans also (little known) attest to america's self-righteous and hypocritical obsession with denigrating, humiliating and destroying peoples they believe to be whatever it is their "authorities" deem and demonize them to be. The majority of the so called americans who are writing to you here, are of the very ilk of people who IMAGINE they are none of the above, but so erroneously believe they are rational, thinking, scrutinizing, neutral, common sensed peoples. They are absolutely and profoundly mentally and spiritually blind and I will add so very, very ignorant of their own dirty insults to you. I will tell them this: I am definitely anti-american to WHAT AND WHO they falsely claim to be. They do not have the intelligence to even be ashamed for their horrible horrible and unbelievable racism, stupidity and ignorances. Five hundred years and going, they remain the true "savages". To me, they remain as they were from the beginning and continue to generationally exhibit: a morally, spiritually hypocritical, violent nation of embiciles. Their only claim to anything is that their "might makes right" and they have done nothing if not prove this and shove it down all peoples throats of the world. They haven't an inkling of the truth of their leaders now nor in their lying, denying and covered over revisioned history. These kinds of americans live their lives in platitudes and hide behind their made-up labels; i.e, right-wing, left-wing, far right, far left, democrat, republican, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. They aren't really human anymore, just labels to hide their empty culture-less shells - always APPEARING to be something other than what their hollow selves are. This is their happiness. If you make them think they are thinking, they will love you. If you REALLY make them think, they will hate you. I will add to that, "and revile you". Just as I see they are doing to your honesty and truth right now. They haven't the intelligence to be ashamed of their abject rudeness. How could they? They never, never, never FEEL they are in error or dead wrong. If you think this litany of wrongs is alot, I will tell you I have VOLUMES more to write about their layered upon layered characteristics and ugly, ugly behaviors. Volumes. I AM an Ahtna Dene! To those ignoramuses here writing so defamatorily and without conscience to even know what that means, that, I am your REAL CONSCIENCE YOU HAVE NOT DISCOVERED...YET! I am not your "american Indian! I am AHTNA DENE. Go learn what that means. Since I know it is not within your low mentality to understand, just let me give you one thought about us: WE never forget who kills us! Also knowing you will stupidly attempt to argue again, again, and over again - against my peoples rights and DIGNITIES, in the face of being told YOUR INDICTMENTS, I know basically these words will be wasted upon your shameless heads. This is why I address the TRUTHTELLER. TRUTH IS WASTED UPON YOU O INDICTED americans. To those whom this applies - which is the greater number of you, I remain as one who indicts you over and over and over.Go live on our Indian Reservations and Go live in Iraq you lazy minded and souless peoples. There is NO statement from you that will diminish our true and righteous anger - that thing you have no clue of: RIGHTEOUS ANGER. By the way, your ignorance keeps from you one big glaring deficiency of mental awareness: your so called 'democracy is a sham. Go ask our peoples of color in this land you thieved and claimed as your own pride "america". I don't mean the sell-outs either. Thats the only thing I believe you can claim - You create sell-outs. Pat yourselves on the back. Be proud of your slimy accomplishments. It is no wonder that america produces the world's highest number of white male psychopath's. Your violences against your own are reknown. Why the hell wouldn't we understand you! You haven't the brains to keep your violence in words, here, to this Iraqi man, who your country, once again, murders another collective peoples and destroys and lays waste to its lands. Pat your stupid selves on the back! Iraq, under all laws of God and man, International Law, is a sovereign NATION. Go LEARN what that means! America does not own OUR world. You white americans or otherwise donkey americans(apologies to the donkey)are NOT SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER HUMAN GROUPING. In fact, in my opinion, you are possibly the worst in arrogance and ignorance. Denial is your finest trait. Pat yourselves on the back you minions and followers. Your Bush is the epitome of who you are. Your society is in decline and you don't even know it. You glorify war and your government has covertly instigated most of the modern wars on this planet and propagandized you into their oblivion of lies that you cannot talk nor think without drawing upon these dark and false lies - ready to spew forth your grand stupidities at the drop of a hat and your typing fingers. SHAME IS FOR YOU. Little whitey Lisa. What else shall I call you who slander all day long? Little caucasion lisa: you show your lazy mind so well. You have not one clue to the lies you repeat and repeat like you are some sort of intellect. GO TO IRAQ LITTLE GIRL! LIVE WITH IRAQI'S GIRLIE. Stop trying to sound like you know something. YOU are just bull-shit. Period. I have other words to say to you, but from the way you write, I know it will soar right pass you into oblivion and you'll just be ranting and raving wildly stupidly because you just don't get it. You don't even know how laughable you are, but really, its pathetic, not laughable. You are just another insult to the human race with your damnable blathering on about what you know NOTHING of.Come on! Get off your ranting highhorse and lazy ass and go get the FACTS ON THE GROUND. Otherwise, you should just shut your stupid mouth. REAL HUMAN BEINGS ARE BEING MURDERED IN IRAQ IN YOUR F...ing name. NOT ONE HUMAN BEING SHOULD HAVE BEEN MURDERED. NOT ONE.Since everyone in the world except sell-outs and mad dogs, hate your president bush, does that give ANY one the right to invade our country and OCCUPY IT because he is hated and imagines himself as a dictator? You are in lala land - like most of your brainswashed with crap lies so called americans. Your reasoning says so. Examine yourself!If you think this little bit of anger I have thrown out at you is it, you haven't a clue because you have no clue to what your filthy credos and uneven two faced american trashy values have accomplished upon ALL OF THE PEOPLES you white racist americans have denigrated, insulted, violated and destroyed. You haven't a clue. Go LEARN WHO YOU ARE inside your hearts and souls. I don't think you possess anything in your inner worlds. I think you are hollow, empty and truly fearful peoples. You are so layered over in crimes against humanity, I don't think you will ever be able to know who you really are - and I don't just mean you lisa - i mean all of you who write your blathering stupidity here and all of you I encounter on a daily basis that ruins my happiness just to see your ignorance in actions all day long at all times and in all places. You all reek of whatever false means and your violences - hidden and covert and overt - just make me want to spit on you where ever I meet you. You never do anything (those of you who are so ignorant who trash everything and everyone without thought of consequence nor conscience); you never do anything to engender my respect. You are the root of my righteous anger and you continue to be the cause. GO LEARN WHAT THAT MEANS. I don't think you are able. Not now, not in the past and not in the future.Your society is in deep decline. Your grave ignorance prevents you from seeing how far down you are sunk in all the ways human beings can be sunk. You are blind, I repeat, to yourselves. Your money, television, consumerism, and 15 minutes of fame, is your gods. You dare to talk of Iraqi pluralism in religion. Your religion is next to non-existent for its thousands of conflicting sects and beliefs. Snake charmers being one of your most blatant exhibitions of this! Your priests phaedophiles at your sunken lowest "spirituality". You damned right your society is in decline when you prey upon your own children! You hypocrits who write so denigrating of truth here. You wouldn't recognize truth if it slapped you in your dumb faces. You have not any truth in you. How could you? You think in boxes, not out of your boxes. I challenge you to KNOW WHO YOU REALLY ARE. I don't look for you to be able to accomplish it. Five hundred years and going you have not managed to lift yourselves out of your "salem witch hunting and burning". I rest my case.Your American Indian Genocide: I INDICT! Long live all OCCUPIED and REAL PEOPLES of this world. You are the hollow men and women. You are the infantiles and juvenile delinquents of planet earth.You can no more quell my righteous anger nor touch my truth than you can diminish and destroy the truths of your genocide and murdering of Iraqi peoples and her lands. YOU STAND INDICTED AND GUILTY IN MY EYES AND THE EYES OF OUR PEOPLES. Oh, and for those gnat-straining personalities here, your "truths" are lying in the dust of your denials. If you can't recognize the truth when it slaps you in the face, nothing of your words has any meaning. Not even your insults.Good luck. Five centuries of your crimes and frontier mentalities hasn't made a dent in your collective frontier mentalities. you are the ones who elected cowboy bush. The epitome of your naked and aping selves. Go forth. Continue to sully MY PEOPLE'S LAND AND INSULT AND DESTROY AND DE-HUMANIZE EVERYONE WHO IS NOT YOU! Continue to show your "just and loving" selves. YOU are the real and true meaning of "terrorists". Don't think you aren't. I ALWAYS capitalize for emphasis and not shouting. As usual, you've got it wrong. I will always have so much more to say than these little boxes can hold. IT'S MY RIGHT IN A DEMOCRACY. By the way, that democracy your so called 'forefathers' also stole from the Great League of Peace Six Nation Peoples. You know. That history you revised. GO LEARN IT IF YOU CAN."

This was an example of your democracy and freedom, the other example is Iraq. There are many more examples, but I think you did not forget them all.

We don't want your type of democracy, we don't want your type of freedom.

Go home and leave us solve our problems in our way.

waldschrat said...

Hurria -
Pardon me if I am at least a little sympathetic to American and Iraqi forces who try to find and fight suicide bombers and similar criminals.

I am an American. You are apparently an Iraqi. We have different loyalties. Whether I sympathize with America's war or not is irrelevant. It does not change the fact that violence is not the only way to solve problems, it does not make the acts of suicide bombers and assassins of all sorts moral and justifiable, it does not make nonviolent tactics unproductive.

In the peculiar world of what if, imagine what would have happened if there had been no insurgency, no sabotage, no looting when the U.S. invaded. How many U.S. troops would now be in Iraq, Hurria? How many more Iraqis would have clean water to drink, electricity to run their air conditioners, safe streets, decent schools, and the right to go to any church or mosque they want without fear of being slaughtered? Get real, hurria. America is not the problem, it is the solution. Religious fanaticism and a preference for violent methods over non-violent action are the problem. If you find the solution America provides inconvenient, find another one. If the problem goes away, the solution will be unnecessary.

waldschrat said...

Link

Anonymous said...

Waldschrat,

If you had not rebelled against England you might have been a lot more civilized and peaceful than you are. Look at Canada. A more developed and civilized country than the US, with a lot less crime, violence and poverty. So you might say that it was dumb to rebel against England. A lot of people unnecessarily suffered and died in that war. But I guess that you will say that the War of Independence was good and necessary. If so, what right have you to try and deny the Iraqis the same right to fight for their freedom, in the way they see fit? Your criteria, your models are exclusively for your own use. It is extremely arrogant to try and impose them on others.

No, America is not the solution. America is truly the problem, but you are too blind to understand it.

waldschrat said...

Link

Where is truth, really?

Anonymous said...

Strykerdad,

"The Chickasaw paid an unusually heavy price for a privilege most white Americans take for granted. They were first forced to fend off the claims of more than 4,000 whites before their lands were finally allotted to 6,337 Chickasaw and 4,607 black Freedmen. Of the 4,707,904 acres they had before, the Chickasaw kept only a small part, and by 1920 75 percent of this had passed into white ownership. At present the Chickasaw have only 300 acres which are tribally owned. With the dissolution of their tribal government in 1906 to allow for Oklahoma statehood the following year, the Chickasaw Nation ceased to exist. Many moved away or were absorbed into the local population."

Being a Chickasaw you must be proud of the way your tribe was robbed by the Americans... I would immagine that your tribe's history would have made you a little more sympathetic towards Iraqis... But maybe you are not really Chickasaw...

Anonymous said...

Moron99,

No, I do not think Strykerdad can be a real Chickasaw because he apparently doesn't care that his ancestral land was robbed by the Americans, and because he seems to have joined his oppressors in the task of oppressing another nation - the Iraqi nation. A real and proud Chickasaw would refuse to do the Americans' dirty work.

Anonymous said...

We hear alot of your lies especially when you try to adhere crimes done by you or your allied forces to the insurgency. We know that many of the terrorists are made according to your programs.

Keep wallowing in your conspiracy theories, if they make you feel better. They won't help you make sense of the world, though.

I'm beginning to understand where some of Najma's writings come from. It's truly a shame because she is a very smart girl.


You may find it worth thinking about.

Are you kidding, "Truth Teller"?

That rabid screed you quoted in its entirety had all the coherence of the rantings of a lunatic. You honestly think quoting it helps your argument?

waldschrat said...

Truthteller (and Strykerdad) -
Truthteller, you said in your post "The Iraqi insurgents believe in the quote 'A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free' so they endanger their lives to free their country from the invaders."

Link to poem

A common irreverent paraphrase to Kiplings poem is "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs you will be a head taller than everybody else in the room."

Truthteller, you want peace for Iraq. Strykerdad wants peace for Iraq. Your children are endangered by the fighting. Strykerdad's child is endangered by the fighting. You are angry that foreign troops are in your city. Strykerdad would feel no differently if foreign troops were in his.

Explain to me please why you two can not find the patience to cooperate with each other to find a way to stop this madness?

Anonymous said...

This is the truth

The General Command of the Iraqi Resistance issued a communiqué dated 16 May 2005 concerning the defeat of the American enemy and its evident losses in the Battle of al-Qa’im. The communiqué reads as follows:



In the name of God, the Merciful, the Mercy-giving.


“If God supports you no one can overcome you”

The Qur’an [3:160].



Steadfast people of Iraq!



Members of the Glorious Arab Nation!



Heroic fighters!



The perfidious American enemy wanted to get another taste of its inevitable failure at the hands of the valiant men of the difficult tasks forces. This time it was the Resistance that had the initiative, making decisions about the engagement in accordance with its military plan to draw the enemy into battle in places other than where it was forced to lick its wounds in previous fights. This time our choice fell on a piece of the pure territory of Iraq that has made enemies taste the bitterness of wounds time and time again since 9 April 2003 – the area of al-Qa’im. We will dwell at length on the merits of these battles – such as the precise planning and the high level of professionalism displayed in how they were waged – merits that dismayed the enemy and left terror in the hearts of his forces.



First. Information was leaked to the enemy saying that groups of armed Resistance fighters were present in the areas of old al-‘Ubaydi and the residential areas of al-‘Ubaydi, al-Karabilah, and Sa‘dah on the right bank of the Euphrates River and in the areas of ar-Rummanah, and al-Bu Hardan on the left bank.



Second. The enemy launched a wide-scale attack on all areas. They built a bridge over the Euphrates in the area of al-‘Ubaydi to prevent the Resistance fighters from infiltrating or crossing from one bank to the other.



Third. A fierce battle lasting more than seven hours raged as the Americans tried to construct their bridge. During that combat the Americans took important losses, including the destruction of four armored vehicles, killing all aboard them, and the killing of 15 more US troops besides until finally the Americans were able to complete their bridge.



Fourth. The enemy was drawn into the area of ar-Rummanah as a selected killing zone. There a heavy battle took place in which the enemy lost three vehicles burned together with their crews and a number of other soldiers. The enemy tried to evacuate his casualties using farm tractors but the people of Great Iraq did not give him the chance and the Americans withdrew leaving their burned vehicles behind.



Fifth. As a sign of their hatred and perversion and out of revenge for the losses they had suffered and their failure to overcome the heroic Resistance, the enemy mounted raids of residential houses in the al-‘Ubaydi area, destroying 20 homes and killing numerous civilian citizens.



Sixth. The enemy tried to stage a night landing into the al-Bu Hardan area adjacent to ar-Rummanah, forcing residents of that area to leave their homes. Thereupon members of the enemy forces opened fire on the civilians, killing more than 150 citizens – elderly men, women, and children. The enemy destroyed numerous residential houses in revenge for their own heavy losses and their humiliating defeat at the hands of our heroic fighters.



Seventh. The enemy directed its heavy weapons fire at the residential neighborhood in the al-Karabilah area, destroying eight residential houses and a number of shops and setting four civilian cars ablaze. The extraordinary Resistance men stood up to the enemy, launching a unique battle that inflicted heavy losses on the enemy, including the burning of three armored vehicles, killing all inside of them, and shooting down three helicopters – two of them in the neighboring al-Karabilah – Sa‘dah area and the third in ar-Rumiyah. The wreckage of the three helicopters still lies on the ground on the other bank of the river, telling the story of the enemy’s defeat.



Eighth. Units of the heroic Resistance inflicted heavy losses on the enemy in men and materiel. They attained all their objectives, thanks be to God, and withdrew in an orderly fashion to prevent the perfidious enemy from continuing its attacks on civilians, showing their hatred and venting their rage at their own impotence in the face of the Mujahideen Resistance fighters. This move by the Resistance prevented a repeat of what happened in previous engagements in al-Fallujah, Samarra’, Mosul, and Tall ‘Afar.



Valiant Iraqis!



Noble Arabs!



The Battles of al-Qa’im and the Iraqi victory there show once again that the initiative has been and will remain in the hands of the heroic Iraqi Resistance. The daily occurrence of jihadi operations by the Iraqi people from the north of the country to the south and from the east to the west show that Iraq will continue to defy the plundering attackers. Bush’s desecration of our pure land only opened the gates of hell before the invaders and their stooges. This is what will befall all their aggressor armies. None of them will be safe until they leave the land of Iraq, never to return.



Our country’s leadership, specifically President Saddam Hussein, the General Commander of the Armed Forces, may God set him free, warned the American administration against committing the stupidity of attacking Iraq. But the conceit, recklessness, and idiocy of President George Bush, the son, overcame the voice of reason and he paid no heed to those warnings. Today the promise has come to pass that his troops are committing suicide not only at the walls of dear Baghdad, but on every inch of our pure beloved country.



On this glorious occasion, we repeat our call to the American Administration to return to the voice of reason and to preserve what remains of their forces by hastening to withdraw them from Iraq. The Iraqis today have no option but jihad in defense of their honor, land, dignity, and sacred values. They will not cease to make the greatest sacrifices in this cause until the banner of victory is raised and waves high and proudly in the sky of our beloved homeland. We will never lay down our weapons until the last foreign soldier has departed – dead or alive. The Americans and their stooges have many options before them to save what remains of their face. One of them is to accept the option of withdrawal, setting free all the prisoners they hold and compensating the Iraqi people for all the harm and loss they have caused them by the unjust embargo and then their aggression and occupation of their country, returning the courageous Iraqi army and the heroic Iraqi security forces to their posts and dissolving the puppet militias and fulfilling all the other patriotic demands.


That is the best choice that the Bush Administration could make if it wants to get back some of the credibility it has lost, if it wishes to preserve a little bit of what remains of the faith once placed in it by the people of America and the world. By choosing any other path, the Americans and their allies will get nothing from the Iraqis but bayonet blades and gun barrels and hearts and minds ready to die as martyrs for God and their country in order to attain the victory which is near.



Long live Great Iraq, a homeland for all Mujahideen seeking freedom and dignity!



Long live the heroic Iraqi Resistance, the long arm of justice for our steadfast defiant people!



Long live the Leader of the Mujahideen, the Father of Martyrs, and Commander of the heroic Resistance!



Long live Palestine, Free and Proud from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River!



God is greatest! God is greatest! God is greatest!



Glory to the Arab Nation and may the lowly be brought low!



General Command of the Iraqi Resistance.

16 May 2005.

Anonymous said...

Hurria,

well, i guess that settles it. The terrorists do want to see Saddam back in power and they are coordinating with muj. Which means the bombing and killing of innocent civillians is intentional.

Anonymous said...

Telling the 'truth'---Bagdad Bob, is this you?

waldschrat said...

LINK

waldschrat said...

Another LINK

waldschrat said...

And yet another LINK

waldschrat said...

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free."

I can accept that as truth and STILL say with complete honesty and perfect logic that some methods are worthy of respect and some are not, violence is not necessary to change, and nonviolent methods are effective.

Anonymous said...

"Go home and leave us solve our problems in our way."

Truth teller,
I see you have finally come clean as to the purpose of this and perhaps your daughters' blogs. I am rather interested in what exactly you mean by "our way"? Is it anything like Saddams way?

moron99,
I really admire your perseverance. I may not always comment, but I do stop by periodically to see how the arguement is going.

Lynnette in Minnesota

Anonymous said...

ABC News International:

"In the last two days, the military announced that 14 American troops have been killed since Sunday."

Things are definitely getting better for the occupation forces. Insurgents are close to final defeat... Isn't it Moron99 and Strykerdad?...

Truth teller said...

@Lynnette in Minnesota,

It is very usual for the Americans to understand our words the way they want.
For your information and to other commentators who are like you, I am not a Bathist, I was and still anti Saddam but when it comes to choosing between two evils, Saddam is much better than the occupation.
By this I also want to say that I am not anti-American as people, but I am anti the American policy.

If you look at the history of Iraq before the war, there was no terror or whatsoever.
The terror and the terrorists came with occupation, and that will end with the end of the occupation.

Some of you ignorant americans, repeatedly talk about the Sunnis as bathists. This is absolutely wrong, the percentage of Sheei bathist is much more than the Sunni Baathist. I don't have the exact numbers but it is around 60%, in the high rank Bathist and 70% in the low rank.

Many of the ministers were Sheei including the minister of interior, minister of oil and many others. In addition, the first bodyguard to Saddam was Sheei.

At the time of Saddam, no one asked about the religions or the sectarians, the only thing was his loyality to Saddam.

So please stop this stupid dseperation between Iraqis on such bases.

Anonymous said...

"..when it comes to choosing between two evils, Saddam is much better than the occupation."

"If you look at the history of Iraq before the war, there was no terror or whatsoever."

Truth teller,

I have a feeling that there are people in Iraq who might argue those two points with you. Do you want me to hunt up links for you? Or are you totally close minded when it comes to different ideas?


"The terror and the terrorists came with occupation, and that will end with the end of the occupation."

Are you sure about that? We tried withdrawing from Fallujah and Najaf, did we not? How did those two cities fare under the Fallujah Brigade and Al-Sadr? Are you honest enough to look closely at that? Because as everyone keeps reminding us, you are the one in Iraq. Are you willing to wager your life and that of your family on the veracity of that statement?

Lynnette in Minnesota

Anonymous said...

If you look at the history of Iraq before the war, there was no terror or whatsoever.

I know many Iraqis who would vehemently disagree with you.

Anonymous said...

Hurria dear,

Please stop the "your gov", "your troops" processed bull food and let the good people know that these are also yours. Make the arguments fair, dear.

Isn't the US wonderful, Hurria dear! It welcomes and gives succor to even those that disdain it's own freely elected government.

Remember when you said to Abbas that you feared for world peace if Bush were relected?

Have you noticed just how moderate Abbas is becoming since he's closed his comment section? Fascinating, don't you think? Abbas is a good man. The best to him and his search among the rocks, eh.

Yes, Moron99, she is Iraqi. What a wonderful, diverse, tolerant country this is.

Truth Teller, what is the American Governments agenda in Iraq, in your opinion, sir?

Shirin

Anonymous said...

The basic questions come down to this...Do you believe that, if terrorist attacks ended - no suicide car bombings, in other words, would Iraq have peace? In other words, do you believe that American troops would kill indiscriminately if there were no resistance? Would there be no terrorist attacks if the US left? Would Iraq succumb to dictatorship again if the US left? A reseanable person would infer, from these circumstances, that without the terrorist attacks, the American military could focus on rebuilding a war torn country, rather than continouously fighting a pointless war. Therefore, we should all speak with one voice to end terrorism.

Anonymous said...

That is why, John, we need to all put down our biases and support the end of this conflict. Suicide bombers that kill significant numbers of innocent Iraqis do not constitute a legitimate resistance. There are, unfortunately, many Iraqis who truly believe the United States is in Iraq to steal oil. If those individuals have the best interests of Iraq at heart, they should form a political entity that the United States can negotiate with. Al Sadr's group, for example, at least constitutes a form of legitimate resistance. In any event, suicide bombings do nothing but perpetuate chaos. I fail to understand why certain individuals cannot bring themselves to condemn these actions by the so called resistance. End the suicide bombings and you end the disfavored US military operations. Simple. Many innocent people have died in this conflict. Many innocent people died as a result of Saddam's rule. Many innocent people died as a result of the West's failure to undermine Saddam's regime when it had the chance. Many innocent people died as a result of the cold war conflict that helped bring Saddam Hussein to power in the first place. Many innocent people died as a result of political conditions that preceded the Cold War. We are all to blame. Things will only get better when we all take responsibility and contribute to bring positive change to Iraq. What have you done?

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous, 5/25/2005 07:45:27 AM.

"In any event, suicide bombings do nothing but perpetuate chaos. I fail to understand why certain individuals cannot bring themselves to condemn these actions by the so called resistance. End the suicide bombings and you end the disfavored US military operations".

You are, as usual with your ilk, completely disingenuous (I don't know which one of the Anonymouses you are, but I notice that the more your debacle in Iraq gets out of control, the less you deluded US warmongerers are prepared even to use a pen-name).

1) Nobody knows for sure who is responsible for the suicide bombings, and nobody defends them, in Iraq or among anti-war commentators.
2) To say that the US occupation forces have been murdering & humiliating Iraqi civilians, bombing houses & whole cities, torturing prisoners, etc. etc. etc., 'because of' the suicide bombings is, quite simply, a total lie. The US forces have started these nice activities from day one of their invasion of Iraq.

So try to be honest, lying Anonymous: who did kill nine (9) of your beasts-at-arms in the past 24 hours? Was it the 'suicide bombers'?
No, it was the Iraqi resistance (& with no 'suicide bombers').

About the 'suicide bombers' killing Iraqis you actually do not give a damn, you only use them for propaganda purposes (and one wonders who sends them: ever heard of Col. Edward Landsdale & his bombing squads in Vietnam? Of Salvador, Italy in the Seventies, and many other places where US-sponsored 'mysterious' bombs killing civilians went off?).

What you do not like at all is instead the Iraqi resistance, which is getting more and more effective in killing the US invaders.

So, whom are you trying to fool with your hypocrite rant? It is very simple, if you are 'for peace in Iraq': ask your Congressman & your Senator to move the US military out of Iraq ASAP, and the Iraqis will sort out their problems and have peace at last.

This 'appeal' of yours is just disgusting: one more exercise in deception, lies and denial.
Until the day you move out of Iraq (yes, by now withdrawal would be called a 'defeat' for your Administration & its criminal Neo-Cons; but it's a well deserved defeat, & if you hang on there much longer it will be much more serious) there won't be peace; and more and more Iraqis will join the resistance.

waldschrat said...

Americans commenting here should recognize that even though Saddam was an unmitigated SOB of the worst sort things have indeed gotten worse in Iraq in many ways since he was removed. In entering Iraq, the U.S. and it's partners removed the existing governmental structure without having a viable replacement at hand. The police, the Iraqi equivalent of the National Guard, the Army, all the forces previously responsible for maintenance of order, all were swept away. Further, and as a consequence of the invasion (even if not the result of US bombs), massive damage to the government infrastructure and institutions of the country occurred as Iraqi looters went on a huge shopping and vandalism spree. Finally, insurgent forces predictably sabotaged and continue to sabotage everything and anything that they can to screw things up. In the absence of effective law enforcement forces, criminals of all sorts steal, kidnap and extort money from honest Iraqis. To this, add accidental shootings, misguided raids, and continual collateral damage from insurgent attacks on US forces and vice versa and you get a dangerous madhouse, utterly worse for any simple, honest citizen trying to live a normal life than what prevailed under Saddam. Call Saddam any kind of name you want, fault his methods as you wish, the SOB managed to keep order in Iraq, and the US has not equaled his performance in that very important respect.

As a result, Truthteller and his kids have to dodge firefights and kidnappers when they go out, huddle away from the windows when there's a battle in the neighborhood hoping nobody lobs a bomb at the house, put up with electrical and water supply outages and busted glass, etc.

To top it all off, when they complain in their blogs, people can't understand why they are irritated, why they're not overjoyed that America ousted Saddam and rought freedom and democracy to Iraq, why they're not grateful and happy and patient with all the problems. Truthteller's daughters have to shut comments off in their blogs to avoid being barraged by insults and tirades written by people who want everybody to love the USA, and sometimes they weep and the insults and obscenities that do get through.

Cut Truthteller some slack!!! He has every right to be damn angry at the damage and chaos and misery this war has brought to his country, his city and his family.

Anonymous said...

Angry italian - call me Jay, if you need a name. Not sure that "an italian" is any less anonymous than "anonymous" but, whatever - I am pleased to accomodate you. As explained, there is nothing hypocritical about wanting peace. I would like to believe you want it, too. Unfortunately, it appears that you are more interested in seeing more death and destruction as long as it ensures that America loses. You further failed to answer any of my questions, although I think you tried. Your contention is that, even if there were no suicide bombings, the Americans would still be "killing innocent Iraqis..." If you study the situation, you would realize that American military operations increase with the number of suicide car bombings. They decrease when there is a lull. Additionally, you are not going to convince any "warmonger" that you are right when you bring up South America and Southeast Asia - totally different time and circumstances - products of cold war rivalry, not Islamofascism. Try to stick with one issue at a time, otherwise you will fail to make your point. If you really want peace, please, explain your point of view rationally, and try to convince, rather than attack. Saying that "America is evil" just seems a little subjective and isn't something us "warmongers" can work with. May peace be with you, brother. And I hope you never have to suffer the effects of a suicide car bomb.

Anonymous said...

How many? Give us a number. Where were they living in the years before the war? Where are they living now?

Quite a few. Sorry I don't keep a tabulation. They were living in Iraq in the years before the war and they are still living in Iraq... unlike you.

Anonymous said...

So try to be honest, lying Anonymous: who did kill nine (9) of your beasts-at-arms in the past 24 hours? Was it the 'suicide bombers'?
No, it was the Iraqi resistance (& with no 'suicide bombers').


Wrong again.


On Tuesday, three soldiers were killed in central Baghdad when their Humvee was struck by a suicide car bomb - the latest in a wave of similar attacks across Baghdad in recent weeks.

There was more violence against Iraqi civilians on Tuesday, including a car bomb explosion near a school in Baghdad, killing at least two and wounding eight, the police said, though unconfirmed reports later in the day put the death toll at six.

There is no separation between a so-called "noble resistance" and "suicide car bombers" who kill Iraqi civilians along with Iraqi police and U.S. and Iraqi troops. They are one and the same. Their methods and actions prove it every day.

Anonymous said...

What our charming American friends are telling Iraqis is : "Surrender and we will let you live..."

Is it surprising that Iraqis are not eager to do that? Many Americans may not be familiar with the concept of dignity, but dignity is important to Iraqis. They are not going to surrender. And Americans will continue dying until they understand that there is only one way out: to leave Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Bruno, Hurria and others - If what you guys really want is peace in Iraq, please explain, along with your detailed analysis, how this will be achieved through immediate US pullout? I mean, you've said it several times, that the "insurgency" will end if the US leaves, but you don't really explain, realistically, how this will happen. My contention is, along with many others from all over the world, including Iraq, if the US military were to simply up and leave Iraq, there would be an extremely bloody civil war for power that would, in the end, return the remnants of Saddam's regime, along with some Islamofascists and the other "insurgents," to power. Is it your belief that the current government would remain intact?

Anonymous said...

Okay, Hurria, so you didn't say that America leaving will bring peace to Iraq? Now, I guess you are saying that America leaving will reduce the violence to a level you find more acceptable? Obviously, there is a government there that, at the very least, has not called for the US to leave. This government is perceived as a "puppet government" by people like you. If the US leaves, will the puppet government, along with the new Iraqi army, not be overrun by the resourceful insurgents? Will they not all be killed as "traitors"? Will the government and Iraqi army fight back? Your "solution" seems totally unreasonable and lacks any real planning. Don't let your emotions cloud your ability to think clearly.

Anonymous said...

She also did not say on which aisle she will stand when 40k Iraqi's encircle Baghdad in hope of resolving some of the killing that she so desperately complains about. She also did not say that those individuals such as Bruno, Albotross and the Ugly Italian should stop using Iraq as their little pre-curser in their expression of hatred/envey of America. Just which side of the Iraqi people are you chaps on? People are dieing there, boys. Quite playing your childish, playground games.

Elie

Anonymous said...

Your responses indicate that you are completely ignorant of the psychological and sociopolitical circumstances that produce war or peace. For certain, you have no crystal ball. But when you propose the withdrawal of US troops, one would expect that you have some kind of hypothetical scenario in mind as to what the consequences of that pullout will mean for Iraq in the long term. Again, I'm not trying to tell you what you think, I'm asking you - hence, the question marks at the end of the sentences. Just requesting clarification. No need to be defensive or feel hurt. So please, explain to me again so I can get it through my thick American skull - what is your expectation when troops leave? Are you saying that this will lead to peace and prosperity in the long term? Like when the US left Vietnam? Just explain how. Do troops leave and fighting stops? Do troops leave and terrorists leave? Does the elected Iraqi government remain intact? Does France move in and establish security? All of your answers just seem so simple to me, based on bias and hatred for America. I guess I'm not buying it, but I'm sure that doesn't bother you. I'm done with you on this board. I'm sure we'll see each other again. Peace, brother.

Anonymous said...

Nice retort, Hurria. I'm convinced now!

Anonymous said...

Hurria, I am SO sorry for calling you ignorant. Again, I am wrong. I virtually kneel before you and beg your forgiveness. You are, in fact, extremely knowledgeable... and you always respond so rationally to the concerns of us ignorant "warmongers." So sorry, mate. Friends? Can we get back to the issue?

Anonymous said...

You've responded to all my sarcastic comments. obviously, you are paying attention. But, please, let's get back to the issues.