Monday, September 26, 2005

Who will answer these questions..?

What happened in Basra in the last week is well known to all of you. But the thing which is not known to all of us is why this is happened..?

This is an article throw some light on this subject, with questions to be answered.


Now it transpires that two British soldiers were dressed as Arabs and attacking the Iraqi security forces in Basra? And the British authorities have admitted they were members of the SAS? They were caught after shooting at and murdering an Iraqi police official and their car was found to be packed with explosives and a C4 detonator?

Or is it that the two troops were in fact undercover agents dressed as Sadrists, Al-Sadr's Mahdi army, trying to stir up a war in Iraq between rival anti-occupation forces to help the beleaguered Iraqi security forces to stay in control as events spiral ever downwards? Is it that they were planning a massive bomb attack against Shia targets, to blame on the Sunni?

Is it true that many of the killings in Iraq are not in fact perpetrated by Sunni extremists or foreign insurgents, but indeed by British and American security forces, trying to take the strain off their troops in their realization that the war in Iraq was a monumental mistake from day one, witness to freedom and democracy George Bush style and that followed by his sickening bunch of sycophants eager to make an easy buck on the international stage by breaking an international law or six?

At the end of the day, who are the terrorists in Iraq? Were not the international terrorists blocked from entering Iraq by Saddam Hussein and the floodgates heaved open by the USA and its allies? Was Saddam Hussein not the one telling the truth, along with Dr. David Kelly, on WMD? Was George Bush not the one "stiffing" the world? No? Where then is the WMD?

These are all questions which need to be addressed, and urgently, by the British and American governments.

We can assume the position of demanding an answer in the name of the international community. And now!!

This article is copied from KAVKAS CENTER.COM


195 comments:

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

Truthteller
I have seen it suggested (but I can’t find the source now, sorry) that the two men were part of an SAS operation aimed at thwarting arms smuggling from Iran.
Which only makes limited sense to me.
(1) It seems unlikely that the smuggled arms would be destined for Sunni resistance groups: Iran presumably keeps a close watch on its border in the south, and the smuggling could only happen with Government awareness or connivance. Why would the Iranian government want to arm Sunnis? To stir things up, maybe, but the Syrian, Jordanian and Saudi Sunnis don’t seem to need any help at that.
(2) If the arms are destined for Shia militia groups, it seems clear that the various militias, not the Central Government, already exercise effective control of most things in the South, including the Police. Why would the British want to limit their armament? They are, in effect, allies of the Occupation in the sense of keeping order (or what they perceive as order) and enabling the British to reduce their profile. Unless the British favour some militia over others?
I see so little hope for your poor country - after all, a "militia" is basically just a semi-legal gang.
One thing that I wonder about is the original decision by the Occupation to allow every Iraqi household (or was it every adult?) to retain a firearm, isn’t that what happened? Do you legally keep a firearm in your house yourself? What was the rule under Saddam?
I suppose it may have been necessary in view of the level of civil disorder that followed the invasion. But it seems so strange to someone living in a country where the ownership of a handgun or an automatic weapon is quite simply totally illegal, and has been for many years. (And I gather that most of the civilised world is heading that way, if not already there.) Do you have any comment?

Hurria said...

The Battle for Falluja - ROFLMAO! Ya gotta love it!

waldschrat said...

I keep trying to figure out what will become of Iraq. The prevailing opinion in the western press at this point sems to be that it is unlikely that the constitutional referendum will result in rejection of the constitution because the sunnis can't muster the required 3-province 2/3 majority needed to veto it. However, at least one blogger reports that the public mood seems ambiguous and the voters who supported the parties that had the most influence in drafting the document may be split on the result (see ITM Link).

I guess if it were my country I'd read that constitution very carefully and try hard to figure out how to vote, and I would definitely vote one way or the other.

waldschrat said...

johninnz said "But it seems so strange to someone living in a country where the ownership of a handgun or an automatic weapon is quite simply totally illegal, and has been for many years."

Customs differ, and one theory is that an electorate which does not have the power to enforce it's will by force if necessary is ripe for subjegation by a tyrant.

johninnz said...

Oh, I get it now, Waldschrat.
The armed electorate in Iraq (aka the Resistance or the terrorists) is trying to enforce its will by force.
Not doing too badly, either, so far.
Ain't "democracy" wunnerful.

Moron99 said...

Waldschrat,

there's fairly active constitutional discussion on the forums. The overall impression I get is that the constitution is not perfect but it is good enough. In general, people are sick and tired of fighting and want to get on with the rebuilding. They think that the next legislature can interpret it and/or ammend it to suit them.

Either way, IMO, the winter elections are the turning point. If one group gains a clear majority, then they will set up the court system to suit themselves.

johninnz said...

Aha, another "turning point."
How many have we had so far?
"Mission accomplished." Then
The appointment of the Allawi puppet government. Then
The "elections." Then
The "constitution." Next
The "vote" on the constitution.
And Baghdad still burns. IED's still replace traffic signals. Truthteller still can't get the medical supplies he needs. His kids still aren't safe on the streets of his city.
Tell me again, what am I meant to admire about US intentions, US capabilities, US achievements in Iraq?
What am I meant to think about a superpower that isn't super and apparently has no power?
The Brits were so much better at this "ruling the world" caper. But they had the sense to give up while they were ahead.
Sorry guys, I remain very sceptical that you have any idea what you are doing, or more accurately what your government is doing, or failing to do, in your name.

johninnz said...

Aha, another "turning point."
How many have we had so far?
"Mission accomplished." Then
The appointment of the Allawi puppet government. Then
The "elections." Then
The "constitution." Next
The "vote" on the constitution.
And Baghdad still burns. IED's still replace traffic signals. Truthteller still can't get the medical supplies he needs. His kids still aren't safe on the streets of his city.
Tell me again, what am I meant to admire about US intentions, US capabilities, US achievements in Iraq?
What am I meant to think about a superpower that isn't super and apparently has no power?
The Brits were so much better at this "ruling the world" caper. But they had the sense to give up while they were ahead.
Sorry guys, I remain very sceptical that you have any idea what you are doing, or more accurately what your government is doing, or failing to do, in your name.

strykerdad said...
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Truth teller said...

john

"One thing that I wonder about is the original decision by the Occupation to allow every Iraqi household (or was it every adult?) to retain a firearm, isn’t that what happened? Do you legally keep a firearm in your house yourself? What was the rule under Saddam?"

Yes every Iraqi household is allowed to retain a firearm. At the time of Saddam no body is allowed to retain a firearm, unless he is a Baathist or a military officer.
We all bought an automatic weapon (Klashinkov) after the occupation. What is very interesting that the guns and automatic weapons were sold on the streets, by very cheep price. for example a klashinkove was sold by $5-10, The RBG missiles was sold by less than $1, every 2 hand bombs by $1. and so on. The people sold these thing at the middle of the day straightforwardly infront of the American troops.

I bought a klashinkov to protect my family and my neighborhood with other neighbors. and we did that perfectly until the american asked us to stop and they took the responsibility.

During one of the home raids, the National Quards took my weapon, they said they will bring it back later, but they didn't.

"Do you have any comment?"

I think what happened was a preperation for a future civil war, and now the time of this war is imminent.
They planned every thing from the start, and they execute their plans step by step. They are not foolishs, they are very clevers. They want Iraq not the Iraqis, so let them kill each other.

johninnz said...

Come on, Truthteller, don't be so negative! You'll upset your guests!
What do you see as the positives, the gains, the good things that have come from the conquest of your country?
There must be some.

waldschrat said...

I think it's interesting tha the US troops apparently tolerated the sale and ownership of weapons but the Iraqi National Guard confiscated TT's Kalashnikov.

Of course the US constitution says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." That might explain the tolerance of US troops for folks having Kalashnikovs.

I wonder what law or principle the Iraqi National Guard was operating on (other than a desire not to get shot) when they confiscated TT's Kalashnikov.

Hurria said...

Waldschratt, I hate to break this to you, but none of the Iraqi "security forces", including the Iraqi National Guard operates independently of the Americans. If they confiscated weapons you can be sure that they were acting under orders from the Americans.

As for your risible reference to the U.S. Constitution (second amendment, is it?), come on! You cannot possibly believe that the U.S. military, which even ignores the applicable laws to the situation in Iraq (i.e. the Geneva conventions) would apply the U.S. Constitution there.

johninnz said...

Waldschrat
1) Since the National Guard told TT they would bring his gun back later, when they took it they must have been operating under the Occupation "law or principle" of one gun per household. Why they didn't bring it back is anyone's guess.
2) The "right of the people to keep and bear arms" is a uniquely US concept. Most other civilised nation regulate gun ownership fairly stringently.
It seems to be some sort of historical hangover. Doubtless 1860's NZ, with gold rushes, Maori wars and so on, was very like 1860's America, with most settler citizens armed. Probably 1860's Canada was much the same.
You would of course call us wimpy for having moved on from those days. Others might call us civilised.
I bet Truthteller would like his country to be civilised too.

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

Chain not rattled, Strykerdad.
I think those statistics probably relate to all reported crimes - NZ does have fairly high burglary and vandalism rates. Have a look at homicide rates - different picture there I suspect.
I can only think of one murder by (illegal) handgun in the last 20 or 30 years.
(But of course the farmers are pretty handy with their rifles, in the home as well as in the paddocks.)
Australia had a massive arms amnesty a few years ago after a maniac massacre in Tasmania. So things are probably pretty tight there now, too, despite Crocodile Dundee.
Seems to be the way of the future, the way of the world in general.

strykerdad said...

href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007326

I thought some others visiting here might find this opinion piece interesting. I felt it gave me some insight into what I often read here.


Excerpt: For the Arab enemies of this project of rescue, this new war in Iraq was a replay of an old drama: the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols in 1258. In the received history, the great city of learning, the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate, had fallen to savages, and an age of greatness had drawn to a close. In the legend of that tale, the Mongols sacked the metropolis, put its people to the sword, dumped the books of its libraries in the Tigris. That river, chroniclers insist, flowed, alternately, with the blood of the victims and the ink of the books. It is a tale of betrayal, the selective history maintains. A minister of the caliph, a Shiite by the name of Ibn Alqami, opened the gates of Baghdad to the Mongols. History never rests here, and telescopes easily: In his call for a new holy war against the Shiites, Zarqawi dredges up that history, dismisses the Shiite-led government as "the government of Ibn Alqami's descendants." Zarqawi knows the power of this symbolism, and its dark appeal to Sunni Arabs within Iraq.

Zarqawi's jihadists have sown ruin in Iraq, but they are strangers to that country, and they have needed the harbor given them in the Sunni triangle and the indulgence of the old Baathists. For the diehards, Iraq is now a "stolen country" delivered into the hands of subject communities unfit to rule. Though a decided minority, the Sunni Arabs have a majoritarian mindset and a conviction that political dominion is their birthright. Instead of encouraging a break with the old Manichaean ideologies, the Arab world beyond Iraq feeds this deep-seated sense of historical entitlement. No one is under any illusions as to what the Sunni Arabs would have done had oil been located in their provinces. They would have disowned both north and south and opted for a smaller world of their own and defended it with the sword. But this was not to be, and their war is the panic of a community that fears that it could be left with a realm of "gravel and sand."

Mr. Fouad Ajami teaches International Relations at Johns Hopkins University

PORTER SR said...

I think it is all about OIL and it has turned into a conspericy since Desert Storm,I wish Bush Would pull all of us troops out of Bagdad and Iraq All together cause I am tired of fighting something that is not there.Plus I hate the look on the familys faces as we search and or tear down their house cause we found TWO AK-47's,I am just plain tired of it all and all that the US is doing aint helping nothing.I am sorry for any pain you and or your friends have been through,laters...

Truth teller said...

Good news

Last week we received a shippment of Ostomy appliances as donation from the FOW (Friends of Ostomates Worldwide-USA).
The shippment consist of 18 boxes containing ostomy appliances and accessories. We started distributing them to the patients today, as we have ostomy clinic in Oncology and Nuclear Medicine Hospital every Wednesday. By today, 30 ostomates received their supplies which are enough for about one month. They and so we were very thankful to FOW-USA and all women and men who made the delivery of these supplies to Mosul a reality.

I want to thank Mr Waldschrat for his very valuable assistant and wish him and all the men like him good health and happy and secure life.
Also, I want to thank all those who offered their help.

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

"Over the horizon looms a referendum to ratify the country's constitution. Sunni Arabs are registering in droves, keen not to repeat the error they committed when they boycotted the national elections earlier this year. In their pride, and out of fear of the insurgents and their terror, the Sunni Arabs say that they are registering to vote in order to thwart this "illegitimate constitution." This kind of saving ambiguity ought to be welcomed, for there are indications that the Sunni Arabs may have begun to understand terror's blindness and terror's ruin. Zarqawi holds out but one fate for them; other doors beckon, and there have stepped forth from their ranks leaders eager to partake of the new order. It is up to them, and to the Arab street and the Arab chancelleries that wink at them, to bring an end to the terror. It has not been easy, this expedition to Iraq, and for America in Iraq there has been heartbreak aplenty. But we ought to remember the furies that took us there, and we ought to be consoled by the thought that the fight for Iraq is a fight to ward off Arab dangers and troubles that came our way on a clear September morning, four years ago."

Fouad Ajami

Lest we forget.

Hurria said...

Fu`ad Ajami is just a big empty windbag full of nothing but hot air. He has about as much of a clue what is going on with Iraqis as Bush does.

And he is not doing himself any favour by indulging his penchant for purple prose.

"Sunni Arabs are registering in droves, keen not to repeat the error they committed when they boycotted the national elections earlier this year."

Pure rubbish. Sunni Arabs do not consider that they made an error by boycotting the "national elections". Nor do the many Shi`as and other Iraqis who boycotted the illegitimate "elections".

strykerdad said...
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John said...

Sounds like America's birthright psychdad, aren't they the ones with a penchant for invading and occupying countries. Are American soldiers still a minority in Iraq, but just the ones with all those massively destructive weapons...seems like that would carry a bit of political dominion along with it!! Don't you think!!!

strykerdad said...
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John said...

I doubt if I would ever subscribe to the belief that America's occupation and "fighting" "insure" anything. With that sort of insurance I suppose you accept the premise that Iraq will at long last sort itself out in the guise and model of the crusader! That "freedom" will ring out under the moral authority of your regime changers! Yet I somehow dispute your premise that theres been an obvious reformation that you proclaim has been realized in Iraq. seems most likely that anything that goes on in Iraq today is the artificial consequence of the occupiers military intimidation and control. My guess is that the future of Iraq would be fundamentally different should your heroic crusaders go home to attend to their own personal disasters and tragedies!!

yet given that you believe America has a role to fufill within the world, to ensure freedom and free elections I would suppose you have many more battles ahead of you, countries to occupy and people to liberate!! Say a prayer for the innocent victims of your military superiority and pathological visions of world order!

strykerdad said...
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John said...

Yes I would suppose we're different in that way and probably many others! Assuming my years on this planet are at least comparable to your own, give or take considering my children are of military age but I programmed them to believe that political masters that would send them into harms way are as morally bankrupt as the evil they are being asked to die for!

I still remember the hundreds of thousands that America killed in SouthEast Asia under the fradulence of stemming the domino effect of communism! I remember napalm and agent orange and the marines dieing in the thousands for no specific reason or moral purpose!!

I remember apologists such as yourself standing up for the righteous goals of freedom and liberation yet it all seems to wash itself in the same hollowness of material and political advantage! Your triumph of human spirit is contaminated by relentless death, murder and torture! The crusades never could be described as anything other than religious and economic domination! I clearly recognize the obsession you must have and preoccupation to defend the righteousness of your childrens behaviour but never misguide yourself into the belief that it benifited anyone!

If nothing else you've created more anti-american sentinment throughout the Islamist world than ever existed before...your presidents war against terrorism is as intellectually flawed as his cowardly military servive and abuse of the english language!!

johninnz said...

Hey, another John! You can't keep a good name down!
Strykerdad, I accept your belief that within a few months Iraq will be a land of peace and plenty, with a MacDonalds Kebabs on every corner, and the Tigris flowing with Coca Cola. Truthteller will be buried under a mountain of Ostomy supplies, delivered by convoys of Strykers from the magically uncorrupted and suddenly efficient Ministry of Health. His daughters will walk the streets in safety and freedom, without having to dress up like tents, and will have figured out whether they are Sunni or Shia, which they previously didn't know. It's going to be great!
What I want to know is, who's next on the list for "liberation?" What lucky land?
Please, please, come and do us! We seem to have re-elected our terrible left-wing government. I can't wait to see the Humvees and Strykers rolling down Manukau Rd. You can solve our Maori problem - "If it's in Noo Zealand, and it's got brown skin, blow it away! A triumph of the human spirit."
Go on, you can whisper it to us - who's next?

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

What was that last word again?
Peace?
Are the Stryker Brigade allowed to say that, or would that be an Un-American activity?
Given that the latest achievement of the US Army seems to have been to allow its soldiers to post lots of pictures of dead and maimed Iraqis to a pornographic website.

johninnz said...

Including a picture of an Iraqi woman with her leg blown off, with appreciative comments about the fact that her pubic hair is visible.
Barbarians.

strykerdad said...
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John said...

Well said johninnz, not psychdads aposolates worthy of hero worship, just the unsavory seedier side of Americ's liberation! The saddest commentary about parents that script their lives and dreams on the sacrifices of their children who they should be dedicated to support and protect instead he relishes their risk taking and supposes they manifest some form of his demented and dillusional hypocratical view of reality...what an entirely sad excuse for a father or pretentious excuse for an enlightened human being! it must really suck personifying your identity within the realm and symbolism of Strykers!! another entirely tragic example of decadence!!!!!!

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

And now I see that the latest breaking news is about Captain Fishback, of the 82nd Airborne, who has exposed instances of blatant torture of Iraqi detainees by his Division - breaking their legs with bats, etc. One principled man in an entire Division of supposedly elite soldiers.
Their ancestors, the heroes of Normandy and Nijmegin, must be turning in their graves.
I think one of the best books I ever read was "Band of Brothers," which followed a company of the 101st Airborne from their training in 1942 to the Eagles Nest in 1945. It was meticulously researched, excellently written. The main character, Winter I think, was a true hero, a citizen soldier who did much more than his duty.
Dear God, what would he make of his Army now?

strykerdad said...
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Hurria said...

Yons is an unabashed war and occupation cheer leader. As such he is hardly a reliable source of realistic information.

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

"So there have been some instances of soldiers going beyond what almost all would find acceptable ..."
In other words, you agree with whoever it was, Rumsfeld I think, who dismissed the Geneva Conventions as "quaint." Useful to know where you stand - in favour of mistreatment of prisoners as US Government policy.
The fact that the US Army itself acknowledges that most of its prisoners in Iraq are only "suspected" insurgents doesn’t matter, of course. Bring out the Louisville Sluggers!
At least its a more honest position than the "few bad apples" excuse we hear for abuse of civilians, Abu Graib, Internet photos and so on. Get enough bad apples, you start to wonder whether the tree might be rotten.

Hurria said...

Johninnz,

Don't know whether you are aware of this or not, but according to at least one internal report, the U.S. military estimated that somewhere betweeen 80-90% of the people they had detained were completely innocent and had just been swept up in the massive, indiscriminate sweeps they so love to do.

Ertejaa said...

johnninz - the treatment of detainees under US detention can never be perfect. Face it. If you are caught shooting at police in LA, NY, or Chicago, and carrying a grenade, you will be treated rather harshly.

But funny thing is that you are complaining about US maltreatment, while Bashir Assad regularly pulls fingernails and blows up women newscasters (the Diane Sawyer of Lebanon), maiming them in the process.

If you cared about human rights, you would be directing your energy to where there is the larges violations happening (Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt).

Your criticism is valid. But is misplaced. My feeling is that you care more about blaming USA, than you care about human rights. But of course that is not my business what you care. But it does reflect on your character, for whatever it is worth.

Peace

Ertejaa said...

Hurria, the sweeps are not indiscriminate. Read the article by Washington Post on Talafar. The detainees were put in a lineup. The townsfolk and also some Islamic fascists who had agreed to cooperate with the authorities, picked the killers, torturers, and beheaders from the lineup. There are multiple credible witnesses to the crimes they have committed, in most cases.

You see, in Talafar, 75% of the population remained in town during the sweep, and about half the population cooperated with the Iraqi Army to capture the Islamic fascists and killers.

madtom said...

I was under the impression that they were conducting undercover work. Trying to stop Iran from smuggling weapons to their partners in southern Iraq.

Ertejaa said...

Hurria, don't you have a job? Don't you ever contribute to society? How come you are posting all over the place during working overs, day in and day out? I suppose immigrating and going on the welfare rolls in order to bring down the "great satan" or the "empire" from the inside is considered a respectable occupation from where you come.

Ertejaa said...

Hurria, don't you have a job? Don't you ever contribute to society? How come you are posting all over the place during working overs, day in and day out? I suppose immigrating and going on the welfare rolls in order to bring down the "great satan" or the "empire" from the inside is considered a respectable occupation from where you come.

Ertejaa said...

madtom - you are absolutely correct. Iran is manufacturing shaped charges and giveing them to Zarqawi and Sadr, so they can blow up the Iraq Army (which is composed of Sunni officers).

The British SAS officers were undercover to find the source for the IEDs imported from Iran. They need to find evidence against Iran, so when the US blows up an IED factory or an electric power plant inside Iran, they can show the world that the fascist Iranian Pasdaran's were responsible for attacking the Sunnis and Shiites inside Iraq.

ooops for the double post

strykerdad said...
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strykerdad said...
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Ertejaa said...

Hurria - what do you think about this little Kurdish girl who is studying hard at her refugee camp in Iraq, so that she can become a world-class surgeon someday and help people all over the world and offer her family an easier life?

http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/04/doctor-viana-i-presume.html

OK, I know. Michael Yon is an apologist for US empire, and that damned little Viana in her red dress is being an unabashed propaganda tool.

Can we set aside the cynicism and anti-western blame-finding post-structuralist rubbish for once Hurria, and see the humanity behind something?

Does the human race have a history Hurria? Do we as humans have desires and wishes, and do we strive for progress?

Or is history simply reduced down (dumbed down) to "America wanting oil at any cost"?

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

"My feeling is that you care more about blaming USA, than you care about human rights."

You called that one right on, ertejaa. Hypocrisy seems to be Johninnz's forte. He must be hanging around with Hurria.

madtom said...

"Central Government, already exercise effective control of most things in the South,"

Where did you hear that.

madtom said...

" so let them kill each other."

So your voluntary cooperation, is our fault?

madtom said...

"Iraqi National Guard confiscated TT's Kalashnikov."

Maybe it was better than the standard issue, and the guy just snatched it.

TT, did you complain loudly, or did you give up the weapon without question? Did you get a receipt?

madtom said...

"Say a prayer for the innocent victims of your military superiority and pathological visions of world order!"

It's nice to criticize, but what option do you offer? What is NZ's plan to secure the world? Maybe you don't have one? maybe you think your safe, I mean your an island surrounded by thousands of miles of ocean, so your safe. No one can reach you, so why bother with the disorder that goes on in the world.

madtom said...

"The main character, Winter I think, was a true hero, a citizen soldier who did much more than his duty.
Dear God, what would he make of his Army now?"

And you think that the trip to see the nest, went down without a hitch, and they were all perfect gentlemen the whole way? I have a nice shinny bridge.

John said...

Unusually upset Tom, why would you presumme that New Zealand should have a plan to "secure the world"? Secure it from who, what? Your paranoia sounds almost Wellian, how would you suggest we all deal with the disorder in the world, send in another brigade of strykers and expose ourselves to another series of relentless posts from their extended family members going on about their heroic purpose and moral goals..eradicating the world from evil doers wherever they might be found,or a least blasting the shit out of them in case there might be a propensity for evil doing, spreading democracy and freedom in their path!

Your spamming sounds Jeffrey like, ever take ESL in New York!

Are you mad about Castro or America's bad manners, the fiasco of the Bay of Pigs, or are you eyeing invading this unprotected island as another way of correcting disorder!

strykerdad said...
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Ertejaa said...

strykerdad - and when these oh so heoric and dignified Islamic "militia" run out of Basra men to beat into Submission to their ideology, then they go and find a couple of New York Times reporters, and shoot them in the back - in order to have done service to their ideology, and to avenge the arrogance of the Americans.

And while this happens, the western fascist left, members of which frequent this forum, applaud the vigilante's oh so heroic and romantic stand against colonialism, imperialism, and empirism, and call that the "rebirth of man" (Foucault).

One thing that TT does not realize is that these Iranian backed vigilantes (Mahdi and Fadhila) will unleash their terror onto the Sunnis, if they ever get the chance. The marriage of convenience between Shiite Islamism and Salafism and the Arab nationalists, will not last a moment, if the Iraqi Army were to be disbanded.

johninnz said...

Strykerdad
Sorry I've been out working.
These militia that the Brits have lost control of in the South are Shia, right? The good guys to your way of thinking. Except that they're also bad guys, because they're aligned towards Iran, right.
If you're trying to tell me that this whole idea of making over a nation with totally inadequate forces, and a total absence of realistic planning, was stupid from the start, sure, I couldn't agree more.
It should be clear by now that I'm not anti US, I'm anti the crazy leaders who got you into this mess, and have no idea how to get out. (And anti unthinking patriots who swallow any lies their leaders feed them - who can't tell a Bush from a Roosevelt or an Eisenhower.)
"As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." Yeah right!
I have already visited Michael Yon once, and that was enough. He's a standard "support the troops," "soldiers handing out football" cheer leader.
There's a bit more to it than footballs.
Tell you what, you go and visit "Today in Iraq," hold your nose and actually read a few pages, which include news and analysis from all over the world. Remember that Matt and Friendly Fire are veterans. And tell me what you think.

An Italian. said...

@ ertejaa, 9/30/2005 05:31:12 AM.

"One thing that TT does not realize is that these Iranian backed vigilantes (Mahdi and Fadhila) will unleash their terror onto the Sunnis, if they ever get the chance".

One thing that YOU don't realise is that neither the Sadrists nor the Fadhila are "Iranian backed". The "Iranian backed" ones are the SCIRI-Badr Brigates and the Dawa: ie, the two major Arabic parties in the present 'purple-fingered' Government!
And the militiamen of these two parties are precisely "unleash[ing] their terror onto the Sunnis", in Baghdad and in most places where they are strong, and have been doing that for the past few months!
So it seems that you are being, at the very least, disingenuous...

Ertejaa said...

an italian - Your knowledge is dated. SCIRI-Badr and Dawa had srong relations to the Iranian pragmatic, moderate-conservative and some reformist factions. These factions are now out of power in Tehran, and the ultra-right hardliners of the IRGC has taken over. Obviously you are ignorant about these developments, and you buy the line of Guardian and BBC, without thought.

The IRGC is a security organization and state militia. They are not on happy terms with SCIRI and Dawa, and especially with Sistani, whom they see is beholden to the Coalition, and a usurper of the Marja'.

The IRGC, a fascist movement, has clandestinely been backing Ansar al-Islam and Zarqawi for a while now, but has recently increased their collaboration and shipment of IEDs, explosives, and financing of these fascist elements.

Latest news is that there has been a raproachment with Sadr. Sadr has generally been unfriendly to Iranians. But now his interest and the IRGC interest has coincided. The blossoming of IED attacks in the Basra are attests to this.

Now regarding Badr's terror campaign against the Sunnis, you are repeating rumours that you cannot substantiate. I am sure there are isolated cases of revenge killings against Baathists and Zarqawists, such as against a few Sunni imams and insrugent killers. But you are wrong. There is no evidence of Badr unleashing systematic terror on the Sunnis.

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

Strykerdad
"... The mistake as I see it was in not killing every last one of them at the beginning - if you are going to invade a country and rebuild it, you damn well better thoroughly destroy it first ... "
Presumably you are aware that it would be impossible to do this, to "get" all the "turban wearing leaders" without also "getting" the innocents around them. You know, the women and children - the ones who are shaped funny and the small cute ones.
Just how many hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, did you have in mind exactly?
And all this slaughter would have been for what, exactly?
If I thought that a majority of your countrymen shared your angry contempt for human life, then yes, I would be anti-American.
But I sincerely doubt that many of them do.

strykerdad said...
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Hurria said...

People who live in glass houses...

Stykerdad, I challenge YOU to read some reports about what YOUR animals, and their proxy militias (many of whose members are formerly Saddam's goons) have done for the last 2.5 years, and continue to do on a daily basis.

Ertejaa said...

Hurria - Yes, show Strykerdad all the reports on the "animal proxy militia" that have been doing something on a daily basis. Of course you need to show him credible reports from journalists with proper professional conduct and working for known media institutions. If you show him another kooky website like yellow times or asia times, he will not be very convinced unfotunately.

Yes Hurria, let us show him that it is not only OUR death squads than can build suicide bombs and blow 126 day laborers with the lure of higher pay. Lets show them that OUR assassins that go and shoot people at marketplaces are the good guys fighting for civil society, freedom and civil liberties, rule of law, human rights, and the rights of minorities (and majorities !!), at the rate of 600 innocent victims a month.

Good idea Hurria - but keep the kooky and loony fly by night websites to yourself, as it will not work with Strykerdad, I fear.

BTW still waiting for your consciousness theory.

An Italian. said...

@ Ertejaa, 9/30/2005 07:30:13 AM.

There is not a shred of evidence for what you state about SCIRI-Badr and Dawa, it is just your own wishful thinking. And your interpretation of the recent Iranian elections is quite silly and very simplistic.

There is NO evidence whatsoever that the IRGC or other State Iranian organisations have "clandestinely been backing Ansar al-Islam and Zarqawi" (especially the latter organisation) in any way.

A rapproachement with Sadr on the part of Iranian factions is instead possible, but would be in total contradiction with what you state about 'Zarqawi'; don't you realise it?

The Badr Brigades are most active in sectarian attacks against all Sunni (and secular Shia) opposing their brand of Islamic fundamentalism and the present Government, both in Baghdad and in Basra. Most reports do agree on this (are all Sunnis taking part in the political process you 'sponsor' a bunch of liars? Then why do they claim this much?). And it seems, BTW, that it was the Badr that stiffed your journo Steven Vincent.

Whom are you trying to fool?
Truth Teller? Hurria? Any Iraqi?

No, you are as usual trying to fool those who are already 'converted', i.e. your silly crowd of American warmongers.

johninnz said...

I’ll probably have to sign off now, as this thread is reaching the length where my machine can’t handle it.
Strykerdad, where we differ:
I abhor Islamic religious extremism and fanaticism. (In fact I dislike any religion, or religious person, which claims to be the sole fountain of truth. That seems to cover the lot of them, actually.)
Militant Islamic extremism is an unfortunate fact of life in the 21st century. I think the world has to do what it can to deal with it and defend against it - border security, intelligence activity, talking to the leaders of countries which harbour or promote extremism (like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan,) taking action as in Afghanistan if there is no other option, trying to put right anything which is obviously breeding extremism, such as the Palestinian situation, and so on.
But you seem to advocate a state of permanent war against all Islam, apparently based on the belief that it is worth killing any number of innocents in order to get at the militants, and the belief that the only solution to the problem is more guns, more bombs. I just don’t think that is going to work, the Islamic world is just too large - it’s just going to make things worse.
As it has in Iraq. What’s the latest from General Casey - now only one Iraqi battalion militarily effective? Between angry Sunni insurgents and fanatical Sunni terrorists on one side, and increasingly murderous militia on the other, and the coalition military presence just too small to do anything but play Whack-A-Mole, I can’t see any hope for the place.
And there was no need to rush into this unplanned conquest. No need at all.
It certainly had nothing to do with stemming Islamic extremism.
It’s had the opposite effect.

johninnz said...

Case in point, just to annoy you. NZ was visited a few months ago by Musharaf, President of Pakistan (fellow Commonwealth country.) He spoke very frankly to the media about the problems in his nation.
Just one slight hiccup - he was held up for a few minutes at the Airport while the Police explained politely but firmly that his bodyguards couldn't wander round carrying guns, and would they kindly hand them over, please.
Thanks, mates.

johninnz said...

Back from a job.
Just realised, Strykerdad, another reason I don't like your current leadership - I don't approve of pacifism.
Have a look at the Comments in Today in Iraq for 30/9.
Bob has compiled a long list of Democrat legislators who have served in your armed forces, and a much longer list of Rpublican legislators and cheerleaders who didn't serve. Goddam peaceniks.
(Not that I'm a fan of the Democrats, either: as an Opposition, they seem to be crap.)
One question that's been bugging me: Truthteller, do you look anything like the picture at the top of your Blog?
The poor guy looks very unhappy.

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

Well thank you Strykerdad, at least you have finally clarified where you are coming from.
(By way of confirming that, I can mention an interview published shortly after 9/11 with a prominent Muslim leader in NZ. He was full of sweet reason and good peaceful intentions, spoilt in the last paragraph by a statement something like "of course, eventually the whole world will come to Islam." The only appropriate response was the proper Kiwi one: bugger you, mate, nobody tells me what to think or believe.)
But I still think your belligerent bellicose attitude is misguided. Your analogy with WWII is inexact: Hitler and Chamberlain were leaders of competing nation-states. Islam is a religion, not a nation-state, and there is no one identified leader or regime or government. And who is Islam at war with? The Christian West? Or the secular West? Much of the West is now Christian very much in name only. I’m not even that - I’m secular as sin. And what about China and India, about a third of humanity between them. Is Islam also at war with them?
The worst thing about WWII, in retrospect, is the way the competing nation-states came to see the random killing of their enemies’ civilians as a legitimate tactic. And what Hitler began with his V1s and V2s was extended to an insane degree in the Cold War, which thankfully never went hot. Doesn’t humanity need to move on from that degree of "terrorism?"
How do you distinguish a violently radical Islamist from a moderately radical one, and from the mildly convinced millions around them 99.9 % of whom just want to get on with their lives, marrying and working for their families and finding fun where they can.
But the logical conclusion of your attitude, "let’s have at it and get it over with," as far as I can see, seems to be that the West should just nuke all the Muslims, right now, to make sure of getting the naughty ones. (Except you’d have to avoid doing too much damage to the bits of the Muslim world that are on top of you oil supplies.)
Sorry mate, if that’s the war you want, include me out. Very much out.
(Your surname wouldn’t be Bin Laden, by any chance?)

strykerdad said...
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strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

What "last word?" I’ve barely got started (courtesy of Truthteller, who must be laughing his head off as the infidels go at it.) Haven’t had so much fun since my last visit to the dentist.
"NZ pretty much opted out of the last fight against attempted worldwide tyranny."
WTF? Learn some history. Our boys were in Malaya in the 1950’s, one of the only successful counter-insurgency campaigns. They were in Korea. They were in Vietnam, where you guys kindly sprayed them with Agent Orange by way of thanks. They were in Gulf One. And they’ve been all over the world in UN missions, teaching specialities like mine clearance.
We just opted out of the cold war a few years ahead of everyone else because it was obvious that it was (a) insane and (b) over.
Still like to know how you are going to separate the "good" Muslims from the naughty ones.
There’s obviously a bunch of naughty ones in Mosul, and the Iraqi Army (har) and the Stryker Brigade don’t seem to be really getting on top of them.
From everything you’ve written, it seems clear to me that your preferred solution would be just to flatten the place, like Fallujah. Of course, you’d probably also flatten Truthteller and his lovely daughters in the process. But hey, I’m sure they won’t mind. It will have been in a good cause, right?
What Army are you going to use to take on the entire Muslim world? Your present one doesn't seem able to dominate just one little bit of it.
If you find banging your head against a wall is a bit painful, there's an easy solution. Stop doing it.

Ertejaa said...

An Italian, there has been at least a dozen major media reports that Iraqis have been complaining about an influx of bombcars and IEDs from Iran. Of course your ignorant self proclaims "there is not a shred of evidence ...".

Adaptive as ever, insurgents have begun deploying much more sophisticated and lethal types of IEDs, called shaped charges. Most of these manufactured bombs, designed to penetrate armored vehicles, are believed to be coming from neighboring Iran. And they are now being fitted with equally sophisticated detonating devices, aimed at bypassing electronic jammers.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2005/09/mil-050928-voa04.htm

Ansar al Islam (associated with Molla Krekar) has bases INSIDE Iran, both before invasion and post-invasion. When the US bombed their laboratories in Iraqi Kurdistan on 4/2003, they all fled across the border as well. This is well documented. There is no way Ansar al Islam can be in Iran and receive help, without the active collaboration of the IRGC. It is time for the US to cruise missile some of the IRGC bases inside Iran in order to put them on notice for killing so many Iraqis.

Sadr has been a supporter of Zarqawi and Sunni Islamists throughout the insurgency. Read the news. Zarqawi has edicted that the Sadr faction to be exempted from his massacres, killings, and beheadings. Sadr's support of Sunni Islamist factions, including Fallujah terrorists, is well known and documented.

You are trying to rationalize based on your ignorance of Iraqi facts. You assume that since Sunni Islamists and Shiite Islamists belong to different sects, then you rationalize that their collaboration cannot be possible. Well, read the facts reported.

I asked you to back your drivel that the Badr Brigades are "systematically attacking the Sunnis". There is no doubt that there has been some revenge killings. But "systematically"? This is my second request. Provide link, or stop the ignorant rumours.

Your ignorance of Iranian politics is evidenced by you attributing the rise of the Iranian hard liners to "simplistic Iranian elections". As if Iran is a democratic state. Obviously you are ignorant about the factional and ideological strife withing the Iranian ruling class.

And then you are confusing the Badr Brigade with the Mahdi Army. It was the Mahdi Army that killed Vincent and has infiltrated the Basra police force, as reported by the Sunday Times and the British Press, among others. You are quite ignorant about the facts I must say. Just rationalizing nonsense through your western fascist-left lenses.

It is the Mahdi army that is attacking and kidnappng seculars in universities and on the street for deviation from the Islamist moral code. It was the Mahdi army that kidnapped students in Basra and beat them up, and then later had to apologize to them. This has been widely reported. Either you have confused Badr with Mahdi, or you are one malicious liar.

Stop making nonsense up. Show me a CREDIBLE LINK that the Badr Brigade is responsible for attacks on Iraqi seculars. Where are these "most reports agree on this"? Show me link or stop the nonsense. I will have to assume that you have no links.

"American warmongers"? You idiot - as per Christopher Hitchens, you are the war monger supporting the beheading army of Islamists hell bent on installing a Taliban regime of enslavement. Do you think your idiotic postmodernism is a matter of joke? Thousands of REAL lives have been terminated by your Islamist friends. Its your Zarqawist clique that is responsible for 95% of innocent civilian deaths in Iraq. Get an education you Italian apologist for terror. See www.icasualties.org.

strykerdad said...
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johninnz said...

Strykerdad
Didn't understand your last reference.
Look, we will never agree. I came here by way of Najma's Blog. She seemed to me to be a very brave and intelligent girl, trying to live a normal life in impossible circumstances, and reaching out to thousands through the Blogosphere. Not a typical teenager.
And I have found her father to be a good and honourable man.
But as far as I can make out, if one of your Strykers was to run over Najma tomorrow, you basically wouldn't give a damn.
It would have just been a regretable necessity in the interests of maintaining US supremacy in the world.
Dammit, you chose to conquer and occupy their country, when you didn't have to. you are responsible for what happens to them.
Sorry, mate. Not my kind of man.

waldschrat said...

OK, now I am confused.

This guy says there is no such thing as Iraq: Link

THis guy says there definitely is such a thing as Iraq: Link

It had not even occurred to me that the question was arguable, but clearly people are willing to argue about it!

What a strange and wonderful world we live in!

strykerdad said...
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Truth teller said...

ertejaa

"a majority (or most) of the captains, majors, and higher level officers of the new Iraqi Army are Sunnis including Baathists. I understand there will be more Sunnis in the upper levels of the army than there will be Shias or Kurds"

Younhave to know the meaning of this, if it is true....Equilibrium of force!!
"What do you think of the new Iraq Army?"
Another militia prepared to share in the civil war..!!!

BTW aren't you who complain that I deleted all the comments from the opposite viewpoint and advice the others to "Please avoid this blog, as the owner cannot tolerate any contrary opinion. "
is this is a new way to keep the reader out of this blog?... why you didn't avoid this blog your self ?
I am not deleted your comment or any other except for two guy, an I said it clearly why I deleted their comments.

Ertejaa said...

I think you said you will delete any comment that criticizes Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) or Islam.

TT, several questions, if I am correct, you are a physician in Mosul (?) - so you are highly educated, and your english is excellent obviously. Obviously you would like to see peace established in Iraq, and there be a central Constitutional government.

1- Do you really think that Arab Sunnis are 45% of Iraq, or do you accept the 20% to 25% figure put out by the media?

2- How do you propose to prevent the civil war between the 3 main ethnicities and sects? Dont you think the presence of the Americans helps in preventing such civil war?

3- Do you think that when the Americans leave, that Iraq will descend into an Islamist state (like Iran, or worse like Taliban)? Do you want this to happen? If not, what is your solution?

thanks for your time

Ertejaa said...

NZ: Dammit, you chose to conquer and occupy their country, when you didn't have to. you are responsible for what happens to them.

If this is the case, then why do the western reactionary leftists, who call themselves anti-war, do everything in their power to obstruct the constitutional process in Iraq, and demand that the Coalition pull out - risking a civil war?

If what you say is true, then dont you think that the Iraqis and Americans need your support in Iraq?

An Italian. said...

@ertejaa, 10/01/2005 08:55:52 AM.

"there has been at least a dozen major media reports that Iraqis have been complaining about an influx of bombcars and IEDs from Iran".

Oh yeah, there have been. Only it was NOT the Iraqis, but CENTCOM and (after the Basra affair) the Brits. Credible sources? If anybody believes in it, then, you know, I own the Coliseum in Rome... I could sell it to you!

"Sadr has been a supporter of Zarqawi" (!!!!!!).

Now, 'ertejaa', it is OK to be a liar (at least, that seems to be the ethos among you warmongering Americans), provided one doesn't become completely ridiculous!

"Provide link, or stop the ignorant rumours".

If you had cared to read the news about Iraq from other sources apart from the US media, you would have known that many politicians did speak up about what the Badr Brigades are doing in Baghdad and other areas.

"simplistic Iranian elections".

I didn't mention ANY "simplistic Iranian elections"; I just said that YOUR interpretation of them was "simplistic". Please, do learn to read.

"you are confusing the Badr Brigade with the Mahdi Army. It was the Mahdi Army that killed Vincent".

No, me boy. It was Badr, it seems, that killed Vincent, not the Mahdi Army (yes, your 'allies' in the Iraqi 'Government'; but since the Sadrists have got 4 Ministers as well, they must be your 'allies' as well). Your ludicrous ignorance is well shown when you say "infiltrated the Basra police force". As is well known outside the US, the Iraqi Army, National Guard and Police in Southern Iraq are not 'infiltrated' by the militias of the Shia religious parties: they are MADE UP of said militias (Badr, Dawa, Fahdila, Mahdi Army, Hizbullah, and all the others). The Brits and the Italians (Nasiriya) in the South have been training them for a couple of years; and everybody vaguely familiar with the Iraqi situation knows it.

"your western fascist-left lenses".

Grotesque Pinocchio 'ertejaa', is Jacques Chirac a 'lefty'?
And since you are a four-handed fascist, it's rather cheeky on your part to apply the moniker to anybody else.

"you are the war monger supporting the beheading army of Islamists".

This is a very lame and silly slander; the only ones supporting armies of Islamists in Iraq (of the Iranian, not of the Taliban persuasion) are the demented members of the US Administration, and their even more demented supporters, like yourself.

Tens of "Thousands of REAL lives have been terminated by" the beastly American Government in Iraq.

"Its [sic, would be 'It's', I suppose] your Zarqawist clique".

It is YOUR 'mysterious' Zarqawist clique; ever heard of Juan Posada Carriles, of death squads, of all the criminal 'false flag' operations the US have been operating all through the word in the past decades?

You are indeed a "malicious liar", 'ertejaa': only that your lies can work only with brainless American fanatics. They don't wash with people from the rest of the world.

waldschrat said...

johninnz -

"Please, please, come and do us!"

Er, I don't know anything about those Maoris, but it seems some Americans are worried about sheeps' rights. Link

johninnz said...

Waldschrat
Your link seems to originate in Australia. That's the large blobby bit directly south of Asia on your map.
NZ is the small skinny bit about a thousand miles west of it.
They are two distinct countries. Australians are not approved of in NZ. They are too good at everything, especially sport.

johninnz said...

Ertejaa
I don’t think it is ideologically possible to be a "reactionary leftist." It is a contradiction in terms.
"If what you say is true, then dont you think that the Iraqis and Americans need your support in Iraq?"
What I say is true. The Coalition conquered Iraq, dismissed its Government, and took over. Under international law, they are responsible for what happens there while they remain in occupation. They will cease to be in occupation when their troops became answerable to Iraqi courts for any crimes they commit.
Support the Americans? If I (the world) see a foolish person walking into a quagmire, after I have warned him not to, then he may need my support when he gets stuck in the mud, but he’s not going to get it. Why should he?
Support the Iraqis? I certainly feel sympathy for them, their future looks bleak. But after 30 months of a flawed, futile and failed occupation, I think it is clear that the US is the problem, not the solution.
It is no use trying to be the knight in shining armour, out to rule the world, when your lance is broken, your sword is blunt, your armour is rusty, and your horse is lame.
Give up and go home, and put your own house in order.

johninnz said...

Waldschrat
East of it, I meant to say.
Held my compass upside down.

Truth teller said...

ertejaa
To answer your questions up to my knowledge:

1- I don't think there is a correct counting of the population based on sects in Iraq, so the exact percentage is not known, a supposed counting of the Iraqi population at the beginning of 2005 was not done, I don't know why.!!
But definitly the no. given by the medias are not fair.

2- For centuries the Arab and Kurds lived in Iraq without problems. There will be no civil war between them if the foreigner pull their hands out.
The Sheeis and Sunnis are both Arabs, have the same religion, and are relatives related to the same tribes.
It is not enough that the American withdraw their troops from Iraq, there should be no interferance from out side countries in the internal affair of Iraq, mainly from US and Iran.

3- If you (the Americans) and others leave Iraq alone, Iraq will decide its own future, whatever this decision is, we will accept it as far as WE who will make the decision without out side pressure.

Hurria said...

"I don't think there is a correct counting of the population based on sects in Iraq, so the exact percentage is not known"

The Iraqi population has never been counted by sect or ethnicity for the simple reason that those things have never been considered an issue either by the government or by the people. Thanks to the Americans we now have in Iraq for the first time politics based on identity rather than ideology - a huge step backward.

Thanks America!

waldschrat said...

johninnz -
As long as George Bush does not start making speechs about "Weapons of Mass Shearing" and "Archipelagos of Evil" I suspect New Zealand and Australia are low on his list of places to invade next.

The only things I know about NZ I learned from the "Lord of the Rings" movies and "Whale Rider". You mentioned the Maoris in your comments about NZ politics, but what about the Hobbits?

Ertejaa said...

Hurria: Thanks to the Americans we now have in Iraq for the first time politics based on identity rather than ideology - a huge step backward.

So politics based on ideology is superior? Like when Pol Pot would massarce 2 millions Cambodians simply because their hands were not calloused enough at the fields?

Or when Khomeini of Iran murdered 100,000 Iranians because they were not submitting to his theocratic ideology?

Well, civil society has moved beyond politics based on ideology, which is fit for fascists and animals alike. In civil society, politics is based on service and programs - not on low level dime-a-dozen self-indulging ideology.

That should be your civil society education for the day, Hurria. Obviously you grew up in despotic and ideological backward culture and your identity is despotic. You really gave your identity away with this inane remark on ideology. "Territorial Sovereignty?" That was a nice joke BTW.

What's your Consciousness Theory?

An Italian. said...

@ Dear Pinocchio 'ertejaa'.

On the silly baloney you were mendaciously spewing about the Shia militias, do please read http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9558117/site/newsweek/print/1/displaymode/1098/

It is the latest 'Newsweek' article; are 'Newsweek' by any chance "left-fascists", or "Islamofascists", or anything?

A couple of excerpts from the article:
"As part of the hopeful U.S. vision imposed by then U.S. viceroy L. Paul Bremer, 10 militias nationwide were to have been folded into the new Iraqi military and police. 'This decision was never activated', says Ammar al-Mayiahi, Basra chief for the Badr Brigades, the militia of the Iranian-linked SCIRI party. 'And Badr is still in control'. In fact, several big militias are now operating across the southern Shiite provinces, often warring with one another for political and administrative advantage."

"Yet many local authorities are already deferring to the militias. In Sholeh, a predominantly Shiite neighborhood in western Baghdad, fighters working for the Mahdi Army of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr recently allowed a NEWSWEEK photographer to accompany them. The commander, Abu Razaq, who had a black scarf wrapped around his head and an AK-47 slung low on his right hip, said he gets no trouble from the Americans or Iraqi police. 'We coordinate very well with the police', he said. Why are the police so compliant? 'They are too scared to arrest the terrorists when they have a target. So they coordinate with us and we go inside and storm the houses'."
A bit different from your fantasious versions of the Iraqi political facts, isn't it?

But you are the same shameless liar who had the cheek to write, above in this thread, "The Iraqi Islamic Party just announced that Sunnis should vote Yes" ('ertejaa', 9/29/2005 10:52:38 PM)!

And you buffoon have the courage to give lessons to Hurria... isn't that a bit rich?

Do you seriously think, 'ertejaa', that anybody would regard your US 'culture', that is - so it seems - the 'culture' of lying systematically, grotesquely and even comically, as more 'advanced' that the "backward culture" of the rest of the world?

An Italian. said...

@ same Pinocchio 'ertejaa'.

And, before I forget, today at a meeting of the Arab League the Iraqi Minister of Interior Bayan Jabr (who is from the SCIRI party) did totally deny any reality of what you wrote earlier on ("Iraqis have been complaining about an influx of bombcars and IEDs from Iran", 'ertejaa', 10/01/2005 08:55:52 AM).

Your nose keeps growing, Pinocchio 'ertejaa'... do something about it!

waldschrat said...

It seems to me that there is a difference between a "voter" and a "registered voter". Registration results in a large number of people being added to a list of eligible voters. The actual election necessarily occurs some time later. In the interval of time between registration and the election, some people who registered to vote will die or change their minds and decide not to vote or be prevented by other events from voting. The number of "voters" will ALWAYS be lower than the number of "registered voters".

Apparently the current Iraqi parliament does not see it that way. Link

I wonder if there is a court, Iraqi or otherwise, which has authority to overrule such seeming illogical decisions by the Iraqi parlaiment.

madtom said...

"It is no use trying to be the knight in shining armour, out to rule the world, when your lance is broken, your sword is blunt, your armour is rusty, and your horse is lame."

Why not, why wait for something we are never going to have? Maybe you think it better if we just surrender all our rights and line up in front of the ovens

madtom said...

"3- If you (the Americans) and others leave Iraq alone, Iraq will decide its own future, whatever this decision is, we will accept it as far as WE who will make the decision without out side pressure."

Don't you have to win the war, before you make demands for the surrender? Why should we at least not try to leave a democratic system behind? Not that I think we are achieving exactly this, if you ask me far from, but in the right direction, and it should have enough built in safety valves, so (you Iraqi's) could make the final step, of leap, to full democracy. You know the Kurds are moving forward, building brick by brick. They will be way ahead of the rest when things start to settle down. Kurdish airports are now going to start flying to three European cities. Imagine if UPS, and FedX, and the rest set up offices in Kurdistan...

madtom said...

""A couple of excerpts from the article:
"As part of the hopeful U.S. vision imposed by then U.S. viceroy L. Paul Bremer, 10 militias nationwide were to have been folded into the new Iraqi military and police. 'This decision was never activated', says Ammar al-Mayiahi, Basra chief for the Badr Brigades, the militia of the Iranian-linked SCIRI party. 'And Badr is still in control'. In fact, several big militias are now operating across the southern Shiite provinces, often warring with one another for political and administrative advantage."
"

Can't be, JNZ told us the central government was in control of the south, which is it?

madtom said...

"I wonder if there is a court, Iraqi or otherwise, which has authority to overrule such seeming illogical decisions by the Iraqi parlaiment."

Disgusting, it's hard to believe that this has happened a few days before the vote, I think it's illegal, as you not supposed to make changes to the law so close to election day, but I don't know the TAL that well. If it is legal then it's a major flaw in the TAL

Moron99 said...

It's not a bad move madtom. From a chess standpoint that is. From the standpoint of democracy and rule of law it is abhorent. But from political strategy and chess, it's actually a solid strategy. The most destructive thing that could happen to the pro-totalitarian groups is for people to vote. It really doesn't matter how they vote. The act of voting empowers the individual and a nation of empowered individuals id a dictators hell. This change will force the sunni to either vote or submit. It sweeps from the table the option of ballot stuffing by controlling who does and does not go to the polls while at the same time forcing the sunni to encourage each and every individual to vote. It's a quite brilliant chess move.

dispicable. immoral. unethical. but brilliant.

An Italian. said...

@ Madtom, 10/04/2005 01:17:12 AM.

"Can't be, JNZ told us the central government was in control of the south, which is it?"

Oh Madtom, and to which parties do these militias belong? To the Shiite sectarian religious parties that made up the Sistani-blessed Alliance and that make up now (Sadrists included) the so called "central government", this uneasy alliance between US puppets and Iran puppets. So, yes, the "central government" is 'in control' (so to speak) of the South.
Nice 'fweedom & democwacy' you brought to the Iraqis! Once they had just one Saddam to guard themselves again; now they have fifty or sixty different ones!

Ertejaa said...

Truth Teller - as you can see from this poll

http://www.almendhar.com/english_6669/news.aspx

Most Iraqis inside Iraq want a secular and united government that does not encourage sectarianism, and are against Iranian influence.

88% of Iraqis in Iraq believe Iran is resonsible for arming and financing Zarqawi and some Shias.

85% believe that the religious parties (probably both Shia and Sunni) are responsible for the Iraqi mess.

58% of Iraqis want Allawi to be the next Prime Minister, and only 26% want Jafari, and form a naitonal unity government.

An Italian. said...

@ Waldschrat, 10/03/2005 11:17:43 PM.

Honest from you to bring up the latest abhorrent sleight of hand that shows what sort of democracy and rule of law your country has inflicted on the poor Iraqis.

Since the Mickey Mouse 'Constitution' for the destruction of Iraq (not released to the Iraqi public YET, twelve days before the referendum) was going to be defeated, the pro-US gangsters and the pro-Iran gangsters in the wonderful 'purple-fingered' Iraqi parliament did agree on... changing the rules of the referendum!

I'm happy that even some US warmongering fanatics (like Madtom) are scandalised by this undemocratic trick, which shows the fake US-vaunted democracy to be a complete farce in Iraq.

As for Moron99, the foul critter is so disgusting that his reaction cannot surprise anybody. "Brilliant!" Oh, yeah, brilliant!!! It just shows to all patriotic-minded Iraqis that their votes do NOT count, that there is NO chance whatsoever to change the situation through the electoral process (because there are no rules at all! the powers-that-be can change them as they want!), and that the only hope to save Iraq is to support the armed patriotic resistance.

"I wonder if there is a court, Iraqi or otherwise, which has authority to overrule such seeming illogical decisions by the Iraqi parlaiment".

There is no such court, Waldschrat: the equivalent of a 'constitutional court' was to be created later on by the 'democratic process' (LOL!), only that according to the sectarian Mickey Mouse 'constitution' proposed the clergy should make up at least a third of it (sooo very secular!).

PS: in my preceding post "to guard themselves again" should have been "to guard themselves against", of course.

Hurria said...

"The number of "voters" will ALWAYS be lower than the number of "registered voters".

Apparently the current Iraqi parliament does not see it that way.
"

Obviously they absolutely DO see it that way, and are using that fact to try to prevent their "constitution" from being voted down. In other words, Iraq is about to be treated to yet another rigged exercise in what is fraudulently being called democracy.

"I wonder if there is a court, Iraqi or otherwise, which has authority to overrule such seeming illogical decisions by the Iraqi parlaiment."

There is nothing even remotely illogical about the decision. It is iminently logical, if you understand the reason for it.

And no, of COURSE there is no such court, Iraqi or otherwise. The Iraqi "courts" operate at the pleasure of the so-called "Iraqi" so-called "government", which operates at the pleasure of the occupying power - i.e. the Bush administration.

Moron99 said...

Italian,

I do not have to like my enemy in order to acknowledge his skill. The interpretative change regarding constitutional vote shows disregard for the intent of law. It conveys a parliment that thinks it can reinterpret the law when it suits them. Parliment has assummed the role of activist judges. It is not a good thing, just as their interpretation of deadlines was not a good thing. Their actions undermine the establishment of accountability and the balance of power. Nonetheless, these are clever people.

On the chessboard of Iraqi politics it is a brilliant move. Not because of anything that will be said this week or next. That will be dominated by those seeking political advantage, the propagandists, and the small of mind. It is brilliant because of how it rearranges the chessboard, because of how the january elections will unfold, and most importantly because it significantly reduces the risk of civil war next spring. Like it or not, it is a damn clever move that paints the FRE into a corner. Oh, right. Sorry. It harms the FRE and therefore "like it or not" is stupid thing to say. You will clearly be in the "not" category.

madtom said...

""Brilliant!" Oh, yeah, brilliant!!! It just shows to all patriotic-minded Iraqis that their votes do NOT count, that there is NO chance whatsoever to change the situation through the electoral process (because there are no rules at all! the powers-that-be can change them as they want!), and that the only hope to save Iraq is to support the armed patriotic resistance."

I could not agree more, I find it hard to believe that we had anything to do with it. How can this be, it all but guarantees a civil war. If you ask me, and I of course know nothing, it was the Kurds. I say that because they may use the resulting unrest to declare independence from Iraq.

The question of a court. I do believe that the three person election committee, sorry I forget what it's called. Is in fact a supreme court with everything to do with election. They should be able to overrule this. But I have no idea if they will. I suggest we start a letter writing campaign to make them aware of the issue

By the way I'm not a war monger, don't know were people get that idea. I just hate dictators, and authoritarian rule.

Moron99 said...

MT,

You need to chill. Emotionally, it is repugnant. It is sure to inflame many people. Rightfully so. However .... what you see, hear, and feel is quite different from what you get. This drives a wedge between the insurgent leaders and the common sunni. It forces the sunni arab to vote in order to avoid abdicating power.

Consider this. What if the plan was to control the election by controlling the voters. What if the plan was monitor polling stations and try to ensure that only members of a certain veiwpoint voted in large numbers. That plan is now shot to hell.

Bruno said...

[m99] “It sweeps from the table the option of ballot stuffing by controlling who does and does not go to the polls while at the same time forcing the sunni to encourage each and every individual to vote. It's a quite brilliant chess move.”

No, not really.

What it DOES do is stack the tables. Because then every non-vote is counted as a ‘yes’ vote. What if we turned it around and said that 2/3’s of all registered voters in a province MUST pass the legislation or it automatically fails? When the turnout for elections is less than 2/3’s? That would be fun.

All it’s doing is setting the stage for more bloodshed as more Iraqis realise that the so called ‘democratic’ process is actually predetermined, that the rules can be bent and broken at will in order to peddle the agenda of the US and its stooges. That the whole ‘democracy’ thing is a sham.

Anyone with brains who thinks a little about what is happening can only come to the same conclusion. The strength of democracy is partly because a result is supposed to be reached by submission to an equal process in which everybody participates willingly. If the result is predetermined, there is no fairness in the process, and hence it is merely a rubber stamp. It means nothing.

[m99] “…it significantly reduces the risk of civil war next spring.”

Funny, I came to the exact opposite conclusion.

[m99] “It forces the sunni arab to vote in order to avoid abdicating power.”

No, it raises the bar so high that it is impossible to vault. The only way to vault this bar will be to chop down the supports holding it up. Madtom, I hate saying this, but I agree with you. It is a recipe for civil war.

[m99] “What if the plan was monitor polling stations and try to ensure that only members of a certain veiwpoint voted in large numbers. That plan is now shot to hell.”

Ah, so you are saying SCIRI cannot prevent ‘Sunnis’ from voting? By merely passing legislation? Explain to us how that works, would you?



Ertajaa –

“58% of Iraqis want Allawi to be the next Prime Minister, and only 26% want Jafari, and form a naitonal unity government.”
Ho ho ho. I guess that’s why Allawi got 14% of the vote previously, even with the hundred million or so dollars the US pumped in behind him.

My guess is that the Furat ‘research centre’ is a US funded propaganda centre. The other polls I have seen paint a somewhat different picture. The Shia clerics, for example, command a great deal of respect.

Moron99 said...

Bruno,

IF sciri, ISF, Badr, MNF, or other prevent sunni from voting, then parliment's interpretation will be fuel for broader civil war. IF baathi or sunni-supremist prevent sunni arab from voting then they drive the wedge between themselves and the moderate sunni. IF voter access is not impeded by any group then the sunni arab will have a full voice and the collective position will be clearly understood.

The only scenario I see in which the risk of civil war is increased is if a shia backed group tampers with sunni polling. This is an unlikely event simply because it is counter-productive towards the shia desire for power. The strategists within the shia blocks desire power just as much as the ex-baathi strategists within the insurgent block. Their goal is not to start war, their goal is to achieve power. Neither side will pursue a strategy that harms its central goal.

I also notice that you flip-flopped and argued a point of view as the truth that you previously argued was a lie. At times you argue that the government is nothing but puppets appointed by the US. Then you say that the US backed allawi but failed to get him into power. It is something that you do often. You put forth any argument that you think will inflame people against the US. It does not matter whether it is rational or consistent. The only goal seems to be inflaming people. There is no coherence other than blind hatred and a willingness to ignore the true motives of the insurgent leaders.

madtom said...

"You need to chill. Emotionally, it is repugnant. It is sure to inflame many people. Rightfully so. However .... what you see, hear, and feel is quite different from what you get. This drives a wedge between the insurgent leaders and the common sunni. It forces the sunni arab to vote in order to avoid abdicating power.."

You'll need to expand on this further, I don't see or understand this empowerment by creating arbitrary rules at the last minuet concept. It would seem on the surface to be in contradiction to the usual rules of democracy.

Now I could see how people might feel empowered by a fair vote, even better if they are able to reject the draft, and then have to go back to elect a new interim parliament, one that would include a more balance representation, and then draft a new constitution. I could see how this would empower people and teach them the importance of participation in the process. And how it could pull people out of the insurgency. This I can see.
After all the work and suffering that this or any war brings I don't understand the value of half measures. My reaction is not emotional, but rational as far as I can see. I could be wrong.

Bruno, hey stranger things have happened.

madtom said...

"The Americans and the United Nations ... don't agree with the referendum law, and there are consultations between them and Iraqi parliamentarians to find a new formula," said Kurdish parliament member Mahmoud Othman. A new formula might be reached by Wednesday, and it would go to the legislature for a new vote, he said.

U.N. and U.S. officials could not immediately be reached for comment."
MyWay


I told you it was not the US, or at least this story would seem to suggest that the US is not backing this decision, and is looking for a better solution. I hope this report is true

Moron99 said...

madtom,
the important vote is not the constitution, it is the january election. The draft constitution itself has sufficient vagaries and contradictions that, if passed, whomever gets elected in January will get to make the rules. The constitution is a bishop level move. The kings and queens come out in January.

waldschrat said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
waldschrat said...

Apparently those election rule changes are not as finalized as initially reported. Certainly, few people seem to favor rigged elections outside the Iraqi parlaiment.

UN Criticism Link

waldschrat said...

BTW, the fact that "sunni leaders" reportedly favored boycotting the polls in January, then later announced that that was a mistake (a really DUMB mistake in my own opinion), and were recently reportedly ecouraging faithful sunnis to vote in the constitutional referendum, but are now AGAIN talking boycott after the purported rule changes (which may or may not have actually been approved by the assembly and were apparently announced by a Shiite assembly member) ...

(takes a deep breath)

Perhaps someone can tell me if it is a requirement that person be extremely stupid or else totally ignorant of how to elections and representative government works or bot to be appointed as one of these "sunni leaders".

There is expression in english describing the act of boycotting an election to try to prove a point. It is: "Cut your nose off to spite your face."

An Italian. said...

@ Madtom, 10/04/2005 07:18:36 AM.

"By the way I'm not a war monger, don't know where people get that idea".

Madtom, if I was mistaken in your case, I do humbly apologise.

Ertejaa said...

An Italian also known as Bruno also known as anonymous -

I will get back to you when I have the time. First I will post the credible article by Sunday Times that those who kidnapped the 2 SAS agents were thugs from the Mahdi army, and I will blast a big hole in your incessant lies and concoctions.

It must be a bad hair day when the pro-Taliban crowd (Hurria, Bruno) have to resort to Shiite Iranian help, their foresworn enemy, in order to impose their Islamist dictatorship plans on beautiful Iraq, and deliver her to the Iranians.

The Marines and the 2 Battalions of the National Iraqi Army are killing and capturing about 100 Islamists per day in Haditha/Qaim/Ramadi. Hurria's friends the Zarqawists have lost Sada, Karabila, Haqlaniya, and soon they will lose Haditha - inshallah.

Even Al-Reuters is saying that Allawi will win the December elections with the help of the Sunnis, patriots and nationalists.

Truth Teller - the National Iraqi Army is run by Sunnis and former Baathist officers who love their country and understand that the only way for Iraq to become prosperous is to join democracy. The rights of the Sunnis can only be guaranteed under democracy, and not under Iranian Islamism allied with Taliban Islamism.

The Shiite seculars, the Kurds, and the Sunni nationalists should make a grand alliance and defeat the Iranian backed Hakim, Sadr, and Zarqawi who wish to partition Iraq and deliver the southern oil fields to Iran.

An Italian. said...

@ Moron99, on the changes to referendum rules.

In the vain attempt to spew US propaganda about 'Good News from Iraq', Moron99, it seems that in your moronical zeal you overdid even your higher-ups.

Consider this latest news from the Associated Press (yeah, it's in the 'Commie' -LOL!- London 'Guardian' website, but it's just AP news in their Latest News):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5321498,00.html

You wrote: "This [the changes to the referendum rules] drives a wedge between the insurgent leaders and the common sunni. It forces the sunni arab to vote in order to avoid abdicating power".

Anybody can see (and you can see from the piece above that even your Government sees) that this latest change to the referendum rules does just the opposite.

By revealing in the most direct way that the Iraqi 'democratic' process is a sham and a scam, it makes most Iraqis see that the only hope for the survival of their country is to fight in arms the simian invaders and their local minions (so, precisely the opposite of what you wish, and the precise opposite of what you say).
I should be happy, in case (if I were as cynical as you are), NOT you.

As Bruno has already correctly remarked, your "It forces the sunni arab to vote in order to avoid abdicating power" is especially stupid, since any patriotic Iraqi knows that with the new referendum rules his vote is completely useless anyway. No chance at all to reject the Mickey Mouse 'constitution'.
Ballots have no value, after the 'purple-fingered' Parliament's decision, so only the bullets count.
And, BTW, stop re-vomiting this silly figment, out of your own US propaganda, about "sunni arabs": the people concerned, here, are all patriotic Iraqis, including Shia Arabs, including Sunni Arabs, including Aramaic-speaking Christians, including Kurds. All the Iraqis who do not like to be ruled by the US, to be ruled by Iran, or to have their country broken up into little bits.

Moron99, it seems that in this case you especially honoured your chosen name!

Ertejaa said...

Moron99 - just ignore this troll "an italien" who also masquerades as Bruno, supporting and answering to himself on this blog.

Do not feed the trolls.

Ertejaa said...

The democratically and freely elected Parliament of Iraq has passed a tough anti-terrorism law.

As per this law, An-Italian (Bruno) and Hurria should be arrested and sentenced to life for materialy assisting Islamist terrorism. I hope this happens soon.

The tough new anti-terrorism law -- a response to almost daily suicide bombings and attacks in Iraq -- sets capital punishment for "those who commit ... terror acts" as well as "those who provoke, plan, finance and all those who enable terrorists to commit these crimes," according to a text obtained by The Associated Press.

Life imprisonment is the punishment for "whoever intentionally conceals terrorist activity or gives shelter to a terrorist for the purpose of hiding him."

An Italian. said...

@ Waldschrat, 10/05/2005 12:23:38 AM.

I do feel that you have some misunderstandings about the situation.

First, indeed the Iraqi Parliament's decision is 'finalised'. To 'de-finalise' it, a new and opposite parliamentary vote would be required, in the next few days.
Of course, it is a ridiculous situation a few days before the referendum, an 'opera buffa', not any kind of democracy: but that we already know.

Second, as for the supposed 'Sunni leaders', again you miss the point: regardless of the 'technical' wisdom of the decision to boycott the 'purple-fingered' elections last January, politically the decision was well motivated. A rejection of the way those 'elections' (LOL! where nobody even knew the candidates!) came to be, a rejection of the US invasion & occupation.

Third, when you write "were recently reportedly encouraging faithful sunnis to vote in the constitutional referendum, but are now AGAIN talking boycott after the purported rule changes", you miss the point that, of course, if there was a chance to reject the Iraq-destroying 'constitution', they had to take it; but now, since the rule changes are all too real, that chance is gone, so that the whole referendum is a sham & a scam. What would you do in the US, faced with a similar incredible situation? I suspect you'd just take up your gun...

BTW, even if you're mistaken as for the merit of the thing in this Iraqi case, the Italian equivalent of the English expression is a more brutal 'Tagliarsi i coglioni per fare dispetto alla moglie' ('To cut off one's balls just to spite the wife').

An Italian. said...

@ Dear Truth Teller.

I just read that the UN has started distributing those five million copies of the final text of the proposed 'Constitution'.
At this point, I do feel that, if you please, you should give us, your readers, your analysis and opinion about this thing (provided that obvious security considerations allow you to do that). If you can, please give us, in your next post, your view about the 'Constitution' and the referendum (and the changes to its rules) of the 15th of October.

BTW, just now this mindless apish Pinocchio 'ertejaa' has written "An Italian also known as Bruno also known as anonymous", and "this troll 'an italien' who also masquerades as Bruno", and then "An-Italian (Bruno)".
Now, as you very well know I wouldn't feel the tiniest bit dishonoured by being confused with the most valiant Bruno; but you Truth Teller have got all the IPs from which we post, and you know that I post from Italy and he posts from South Africa, and that, unless we have (like some Saints of our common Lord) the gift of ubiquity or bilocation, we cannot be the same person. And you know that neither of us two ever posts as 'anonymous'.
So, please, do ask this Pinocchio 'ertejaa' to retract his most silly lies, or tell him to go somewhere else if he does not. It wouldn't be a great loss: from his post above (10/05/2005 01:52:33 AM)anybody can see that our new liar hasn't got ANY clue about Iraq, about your blog, or about any other Iraqi blog.

Sorry for being so importune as to ask these two things from you (you have more important things to mind, unfortunately).

Ertejaa said...

Truth Teller - this certified liar Italian masquerading as Bruno is using proxy servers to conceal his IP address.

The IP address that you will find is not his true address. It will be the address of his proxy service. There are many free and paid proxy services that will hide his true IP address.

I can smell a rat from the way he talks. Just look how desparately Italian (Bruno, anonymous) is trying to get Truth Teller to do his bidding, without informing him of the truth about proxies.

Truth Teller - you need not listen to Islamists who brought misery to Afghanistan and Iran, and now wish to impose Sharia on Iraq, and turn it into a Taliban state. These people wish to enslave the women and children of Iraq, and also deliver the southern oil fields to Iran.

Many of these carbombs and IEDs are manufactured by the ultra-rightist Islamist Pasdarans of Iran, and shipped into Iraq to destabilize the country and partition it.

Any Iraqi patriot and true nationalist can see through the scheming and conspiracies of people like Hurria and Italian, who goes throught the trouble of using proxy servers to masquerade as Bruno, and then to reply to himself in support of himself.

Hurria and Italian (Bruno) are committing a crime against Iraq, and their punishment by the law that was passed today is life in prison.

Moron99 said...

Italian,

They have outfoxed your insurgent heros. Now, the sunni arab can only protect themselves by voting in January and making sure that they have an adequate number of MPs. But the act of voting legitimizes the government. I think what you are going to see is a great deal of desperation by the insurgent strategists. They will throw everything they have into trying to spark a civil war between now and January. If they can not adequately provoke sectarian tensions, then the January elections will be the beginning of the end for them.

madtom said...

"Now, the sunni arab can only protect themselves by voting in January and making sure that they have an adequate number of MPs."

And you don't think that if the parliament gets away with what can only be called fraud now, that they will not repeat this fraud in the future. And from the point of view of the sunnis, why should they expect a fair election in January, why would they be ready to vote or to put up candidates. Yea they may want to get their representative in the parliament, but why should they think that they will actually get the chance come the next election if they are faced with this fraud today? You may see this pushing them into a corner as a way to control them, but people pushed into a corner are sure to react most violently.

I still don't see it, maybe if you use smaller words, and talk slowly, I still see nothing but a slide right back to despotism. And nothing good ever came from that.

Moron99 said...

balance of power madtom.

Iraq is like an isosceles triangle. Without sunni participation the Iraqi triangle only has two sides and will collapse into shia domination. Since the single largest block of shia follow religious rather than secular agenda the collapsed triangle model will ultimately leads to a defacto theocracy supported by religous courts.

Let's run some hypothetical numbers. Let us say that shia split into 70/30 religous v secular. Let us further use a 300 seat parliment because it makes the math easier.

Without sunni participation you can expect the balance of power in parliment to be roughly 160 sectarian / 65 secular / 75 kurd. With such numbers the shia religous blocks will be able to do almost anything they wish within government.


Now let us look at it with sunni arab participation. First we will assume that the sunni vote will pursue a secular agenda and that is willing to cooperate with shia seculars. Now the parlimentary split becomes 126/114/60. This is a very stable balance of power in which no group may dominate. The bearded ones are almost exactly matched by the moustached ones and the kurds wield enough power to cast deciding votes. It is a quite stable arrangement that forces each group to pursue compromise.


That is what I mean about the importance of January elections and how the constitution is not THE big vote. The parliment elected in january gets to define what all the ambiguities and contradictions mean. If it is 160/65/75 then welcome to Iraqistan! If it is 126/114/60 then it will force groups to compromise since no group possess an outright majority.

An Italian. said...

Dear Truth Teller,

I'm surprised about the comments by Madtom (they do seem to make sense, by now).

About that payed-for-spook, this Moron99 or 66 or 33, he's more senseless than ever (truly, it seems to me that he's growing more incoherent by the day).

About this Pinocchio 'ertejaa', I'd love to show the a**e of this lame beast bare, but I'm quite sure that you would not enjoy this kind of comical bickery in your blog. I do not know about 'proxy servers', but for sure this animal knows more than we do. Yeah yeah, of course Bruno, and Hurria, and myself, and yourself the blogger are all & the same person, right!
As far as desires & aspirations are concerned, maybe this sick beast is right.
I'd humbly suggest that you challenge this disgusting critter, and if the thing does not renege on his/her lies, you kick this 'ertejaa' out of your comments page.
Sorry for bothering you...

Ertejaa said...

Truth Teller - I wonder if you wish to allow this foul mouthed Italian (Bruno) - this Zarqawi worshipper who wishes a civil war to partition Iraq and have the southern oil fields be given to Iranians - operate on your blog with such profanity and personal insults to your readers, causing them to be driven off never to come back?

Not only he does not answer the proxy server question, but he has to insult your readers with words such as "a**e, lame beast, animals, moron, paid spook, sick beast, senseless, disgusting critter, renegade" all within 2 short paragraphs.

And he has the gall to ask you to kick your readers out, because he does not agree with them about Iraq.

Italian (Bruno) the Islamist Zarqawi worshipper should learn that in a democracy, people have the right to say their opinions, without being attacked with verbal violence. Personal attacks are cause for revoking the privilege to post on a blog.

waldschrat said...

A shipment of 85 vials of chemtherapy drugs is in the air tonight, bound for Mosul. An additional shipment of 10 vials will be shipped from London in coming days.

Bruno said...

[m99] “What if the plan was monitor polling stations and try to ensure that only members of a certain veiwpoint voted in large numbers. That plan is now shot to hell.”
[bruno] Ah, so you are saying SCIRI cannot prevent ‘Sunnis’ from voting?


Moron99, this was actually a rhetorical question. I was trying to demonstrate your clear bias against “sunnis” by pointing out the implications of the thinking behind your statement. Obviously it was a little too subtle.

My related point is that it will drive no wedge between ‘moderates’ and insurgents. They are one and the same, if you haven’t realised this yet. And, subjecting the country to an obviously stacked process merely demonstrates that ‘democracy’ only applies when convenient … having the OPPOSITE effect that you think.

[M99] “I also notice that you flip-flopped and argued a point of view as the truth that you previously argued was a lie. At times you argue that the government is nothing but puppets appointed by the US. Then you say that the US backed allawi but failed to get him into power.”


*Sigh* You OBVIOUSLY have a big problem with anything but cut and dried, black and white situations. The product of too many American cowboy movies, perhaps?

Yes, the US backed Allawi, and he lost big time. But it’s not to say that the current Iraqi ‘government’ and the US are without common interests.

On the contrary, it suits the SCIRI / Dawa types just fine to have the Americans and Sunni fighting and killing each other. Hey, two hated enemies wiping each other out – too bad they can’t both lose, right? Basically, they are buying time with American blood, strengthening their power base until they feel they can take over on their own. The US, meanwhile, is trying to corrupt and buy off the Shias faster than the Iranians can do it. Some like Al Mahdi, already seem to be firmly in the US pocket. All it takes is for a politician to put his interests above the interests of the people. Unthinkable, I know. But, it’s not as if the US trusts their ‘elected’ government much, which is why the control of the Secret Police has been retained by the CIA. Some democracy, huh?

Basically, Moron99, what I’m trying to tell you is, you don’t know what you’re talking about.



Madtom –

“My reaction is not emotional, but rational as far as I can see. I could be wrong. Bruno, hey stranger things have happened.”

Hm. Are you sure that you’re not confusing M99 with me?

Bruno said...

Ertejaa --

[e] “An Italian also known as Bruno also known as anonymous -”


AH Ha ha ha ha! You forget that I’m also called Hurria, Michael,john, johninnz, Anonymous (with a capital A), Not Anonymous and so forth. The all pervasive Internet GOD, that’s me. Man, I must have a LOT of time on my hands.

No, actually I prefer spanking little liars like yourself under my own name, thank you very much. In case you haven’t noticed, “Italian” refers to the invaders as ‘simians’ whereas I prefer to think of them as uncivilised thugs. Big difference - monkeys can be cute.


[e] “Truth Teller - the National Iraqi Army is run by Sunnis and former Baathist officers who love their country and understand that the only way for Iraq to become prosperous is to join democracy. The rights of the Sunnis can only be guaranteed under democracy, and not under Iranian Islamism allied with Taliban Islamism.”

Quite the funny man, aren’t you just?

The ‘National Iraqi Army’ as you call it, is a dumping ground for Iraqis impoverished by the US invasion and forced to accept any job for a wage. Full of Shia that hold dual loyalty to SCIRI and Dawa. Packed with Kurds that don’t actually hold an allegiance to a united Iraq, but to Kurdistan.

Although, I’m glad that somebody is finally admitting it about the US working with Ba’athists. I always said it, this war is less about getting rid of the Ba’ath than regaining control of an Iraq that was out of the control of the US. The truth is, the Ba’ath isn’t so bad to the US, as long as it is UNDER American control.

And yes, there must be some good, patriotic Ba’athist Iraqis within that structure. (together with the scum.) It’s obvious enough, when one considers just how frighteningly good the intelligence is that the Resistance gets. I mean, the ‘counterterrorism chiefs’ that the US appoints are barely in office long enough to warm the seat for their successor before they become human sieves.

Can you spell ‘M O L E’ ?

[e] “[…] Allawi will win the December elections with the help of the Sunnis, patriots and nationalists.”

LOLOL! How much are they paying you, ertejaa?

[e] “Any Iraqi patriot and true nationalist can see through the scheming and conspiracies of people like Hurria and Italian, who goes throught the trouble of using proxy servers to masquerade as Bruno, and then to reply to himself in support of himself.”

Ok, listen you most asinine of cretins, why don’t you do a Google search of the Iraqi blogs and related sites and my name? You’ll find I’ve been around for a long time, and always under my name.

IN ANY CASE, isn’t what I SAY rather a bit more important than who I SAY I AM?

In other words, play the ball, not the man.

Bruno said...

Italian --

[Italian] “Now, as you very well know I wouldn't feel the tiniest bit dishonoured by being confused with the most valiant Bruno”

*blush* Why, thank you kindly. Of course, ‘ertejaa’ thinks it’s me congratulating myself, heh …

Bruno said...

To me it’s quite obvious that the latest views trickling through the grapevine is yet more spin puked out by the White House word doctors. The aim of the spin is both to discredit the Resistance against Occupation, and to drive further wedges between Iraqis in a bid to facilitate control. The Americans are relying on Iraqis being stupid enough to believe their lies, and till now thnakfully they have been unsuccessful.

For example, take the idea that a nationalist Iraqi resistance would want to create a civil war in Iraq. That’s just a stupid, stupid notion. So, what the Americans would have us believe is that ‘Sunnis’ don’t only want to fight the US army (as if that wasn’t enough) but that they want the bulk of the Shia to take up arms against them as well. There is simply no motivation for them to do this. Clear propaganda.

The latest idea to be fed into the MSM is the one of the Shiite IRANIANS collaborating with either secular Ba’athists or Salafists. Now, to an ordinary Joe from the American street this might not seem weird, but that’s because they know nothing about Middle East politics. (And yes, they’re counting on your ignorance.) Let’s turn that on its head. Let’s imagine America supplying Cuba with weapons so they can invade Canada. That’s on a par with the BS they want us to believe.

REALITY check: The Resistance was employing ‘cone shaped bombs’ – ie shaped charges early last year, long before this Iranian fantasy crept in.

Do you, ertejaa, really want us to believe that: the imaginary Zarqawi who hates all Shia has an alliance with the Khomeneists, who are supplying bombs to kill their fellow Shia, which already control parliament. Wow, you must think we are REALLY STUPID.

In fact, I’ll go further: whoever thought up this fantasy must be from the same group that dreamt up the Hussein / Bin Laden story. THEY must be really stupid to think that we are going to buy it again.

And you, Ertejaa, are assiduously spreading the seed of this venomous lie.

Again: how much are they paying you?

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Boys, boys, stop your bickering.

The parliament has voted to define the term "voter" in the elections rules to mean a person who actually votes. This is all new and everyone will make some false steps. Give them a chance to learn. There is a link to an article regarding the voting issue below. I will let you do some cutting and pasting, rather then try to post a link, as I seem to have problems on this blog.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_CONSTITUTION?SITE=NCFAY&SECTION=HOME

Moron99 said...

Bruno,

It is you who drives the wedge between Iraqi brothers. One the one hand you protest the heavy hand that SCIRI has in politics yet on the other hand you oppose any peaceful method by which their hand can be reduced. If your interests were for Iraq then you would encourage sunni arab to vote in droves and gain enough power to to block sectarian legislation. But therien lies the problem. Your goal is complete control of Iraq. If you encourage people to act peacefully for the good of the nation then it is detrimental to your quest for power. So you pit cousin against cousin in hopes that the political chaos will give you an opportunity to seize power. Your propaganda is not sufficient to conceal the motives.

madtom said...

"balance of power
Iraq is like an isosceles triangle.
"

You love your metaphors, but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I understand what your saying, and agree that Iraq needs a balanced government where everyone is represented according to their proportion, or at least according to their ideologies, and a mix of loyalties to party, sect, religion, excreta. But where I disagree is that rigging the referendum is going to get us to that place, or that approving a faulty constitution is in the interest of a future Iraqi republic.

To tell you the truth I don't understand why we have allowed big shi'a to get their way in this first draft. They are going to be the benefactor of any future democratic government, and I would have put it to them to reject a liberal democracy first.

Hurria said...

"The parliament has voted to define the term "voter" in the elections rules to mean a person who actually votes."

1. Ummmmm - that IS the definition of the term "voter".

2. That the so-called "parliament" has decided to define the term "voter" using the actual definition of the term "voter" instead of some other false definition is hardly the issue.

Hurria said...

"It is you who drives the wedge between Iraqi brothers."

Oh yeah, that's right Moron99! Bruno, sitting at a computer in Italy posting comments on a relatively obscure blog is driving a wedge between Iraqi brothers. What utter rubbish!

Moron99 said...

i agree with you madtom. however, i disagree that the point was to rig the referendum. this was evidenced in the first round of UN objections when the parliment representatives immediately proposed that as long as sunni provinces had roughly the same turnout as the rest of iraq then they would consider it a valid vote. If the motive was to ensure greater sunni participation (which I believe it was) then it was a successful chess move that has played out well and will continue to reap benefits in January. Yes, there are those within government who seek dominance over parliment and wish to push through any legislation that suits their agenda. But don't forget that there are also many in IG who wish the sunni to have full and fair representation. I believe that this move was done at their behest.

So, hurria ... are you saying that bruno and italian are the same person agreeing with himself?

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

"2. That the so-called "parliament" has decided to define the term "voter" using the actual definition of the term "voter" instead of some other false definition is hardly the issue."

True. The issue was whether they were going to get away with finagling the rules to suit them.

Truth teller said...

an italian

"I just read that the UN has started distributing those five million copies of the final text of the proposed 'Constitution'."
No body in Mosul see those copies yet.

ertejaa

"Truth Teller - you need not listen to Islamists who brought misery to Afghanistan and Iran, and now wish to impose Sharia on Iraq, and turn it into a Taliban state"

ertejaa, you are talking to an educated and religious man. Maybe I don't understand politics well, but I definitly understand the situation in Iraq better than you all.
I advise you not to mix the Sharia in your analysis of political event. What we meant by Sharia, is the orders of God which we have to obey, if we like it or not, and if you liked it or not will make no difference to us.

Both italian and ertejaa

Just keep calm and cool, the auther of this blog (me) can't tolerate oral war any more, I really am thinking of closing the comments section, but I don't want to lose what I learnt from you all, or to listen to the American view point about what they did and still doing in Iraq.
Till now, I found most of the American commenters either ignorant of what is going here, or just propaganda agents.

What provoked a hot discussion here is the changes made by the Iraqi parliment. you here about it because the US and UN disagree to what happened, we every day face things like this in our daily life, but you don't hear about it, or just don't care. we used to the double standard of American behaviour, and we are not surprise by it.

Ertejaa said...

Truth Teller - here is more on Iranian help to Zarqawists and criminals to destabilize Iraq and partition it.

US intelligence officers put the question (of who was mounting these attacks on US troops) when they interrogated captured Sunni guerilla fighters. The answer was surprising. Iraqi fighters admitted, according to our sources, that Iranian intelligence agents posted undercover in Iraq had paid them to attack American troops. The agents had approached them with sizeable sums of cash and a list of US targets. Some Iraqi Sunni groups were finding that it paid handsomely to act as contract killers for Iranian intelligence.

You need to ask the Zarqawi worshippers Bruno (Italian) and Hurria why they want a civil war in Iraq and why they want to partition Iraq delivering the southern oil fields to Iran.

The National Iraqi Army has stepped up its operations from 160 a month in May to 1300 a month in September. Tens of weapon caches have been found. Hundreds if not thousands of Islamists wishing to create civil war and install Taliban state have been arrested and sent to Abu Ghraib.

75% of Sunnis wish to participate in the Referendum and December elections. There is a good chance that Sunni patriots and Sunni seculars can form a coalition government with the Kurds and Shiite seculars and Allawi, in order to rule.

TT - it is very possible that Sunnis will be back in power again by December, and prevent the southern oil fields being annexed by the Islamists of Iran.

TT - it is time for Sunnis to enter into dialog with the Coalition and the United Nations.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=916

madtom said...

"Till now, I found most of the American commenters either ignorant of what is going here,"

That is why we come, to learn. Your supposed to be telling us what we need to learn.

Truth teller said...

ertejaa

"why do you think that Sharia is the exact word of God?."

What I meant by Sharia, Is the rules present in the Holly Quraan, not what Taliban or Khumainy regimen are imposing over their people.

" I hope you are not suggesting that Sharia should be the only law of Iraq"

As Iraq contain multi religions, the Sharia should be applied on the Muslim only, i.e. not the only law in Iraq.

madtom

I found thet most of the American will reject any thing against their "pre made opinion", They dont accept tha fact that they were doing abig mistake on invading a country for false and fabricated reasons. They even beleive a very clear lies regarding the population in Iraq and the sectarian distribution.
eg. In one of the American Encyclopedias (Wikipedia), on writing about the population in Mosul, it said that the majority are Kurds with minority of Ashorians, it didn't mention the Arabs. while the fact is the majority is Arabs with minority of other sects.
BTW most of the christian in mosul are Arab, even if they talk asyrian language.

johninnz said...

Bruno: "In other words, play the ball, not the man."
That’s a bit rich, coming from a Springbok.

Sorry, TT, that is an obscure reference to the sporting rivalry between NZ and South Africa in the game of Rugby Football, which only Bruno and I will understand. (Oh, and a few hundred million Australian, Briton, Frenchman, Italians, Argentines, Pacific islanders, etc. The world is a far more varied and complicated place than your unsophisticated American guests will ever comprehend.)

I sympathise with your frustration over these instant experts on Iraq and Islam who have taken over your Blog. Since none of them (apart from Hurria) have probably ever set foot in the country, or speak the language, or really understand its history, they must be very annoying. Especially when they sound off on this lunatic "Constitution" vote, which seems to me like asking the passengers on a sinking ship to vote on what they want for dinner.

Could I suggest, don’t close your Comments just yet, or your Blog. As Moron 99 says, (can’t you change that name to something more palatable, man) some of us want to learn from you, and hear about your experiences.

Have some fun one night a week! Delete the idiots! Starting with Eertjaa, who doesn't seem to know the difference between an Iraqi Sunni and a Nissan Sunny.

Truth teller said...

ertejaa

You are very ignorant about Iraq and Iraqi people. what ever you read or hear, you can't learn about Iraq and Iraqis unless you come down to the street and live with the people.
With no Americann no sect seek revenge from the other, it is all American motivated emotions, and will end with the end of the occupation.
The Sunni Arabs will not and never afraid from the Sheei Arabs an dso is true for the Kurds.

What happened at Saddam time was approved by the US, They give him the weapon to do that crimes, and instruct him when and how to use it.
The Kudds Knew this fact very well.

Moron99 said...

Truth teller said at 10/06/2005 12:48:57 PM
"With no Americann no sect seek revenge from the other, it is all American motivated emotions, and will end with the end of the occupation.
The Sunni Arabs will not and never afraid from the Sheei Arabs an dso is true for the Kurds."


What do you mean by this? Are saying that the Sunni Arabs can subdue the sheei and Kurd?

Bruno said...

Ertejaa --


Oh, HO! I see that you are busy changing your story as we speak.

I suppose that you realised that the Zarqawi / Iranian alliance is a little too incredible for consumption, and so now you are blaming the Sadrists? That’s a possibility, I admit – Sadrists attacking the British etc makes sense. But to blame the car bombs killing Shia on Zarqawi (if he exists) aided by Iran is simply preposterous.

[e] Bruno (aka Italian) - your mea culpa is requested.

Take a hike, you lying loser. There’s a WORLD of difference between Zarqawi (if he exists) and Muqtada Al Sadr. Don’t try and confuse the two.

[e] “Hundreds if not thousands of Islamists wishing to create civil war and install Taliban state have been arrested and sent to Abu Ghraib.”

Hmm. So what you are saying is that the “Iraqi Army” is killing and arresting Salafists. But not Shiite radicals. Is that it? Or are they arresting anybody who wants an Islamic identity for Iraq? Are you even aware of the percentage of Iraqis who want and Islamic identity for Iraq? You are SADLY outnumbered.

Tell us, ertejaa, are you an ex Ba’athist, by any chance? I’m guessing that you are one of those Allawists that fled Iraq in fear of Saddam, leaving your families to fend for themselves. You know, one of the slime that sponsored car bombings, and who returned on the leash of the Americans, hoping that they would give you power in return for betraying your people. Is that who you are? Tell us, is the CIA still paying Allawi his stipend? Are they still paying YOU?




Truth Teller, you must realise that the old, old strategy of the Americans to control countries is not only to corrupt the democratic politicians through bribery, but also to control the army of a given country. In Chile for example, when the civilian democratic government took decisions that the Americans did not like, they used the CIA to sponsor a military coup against that government. A brutal dictator Pinochet was installed, and supported by them.

Why do you think that the US had such a problem with the Iraqi army being trained in Iran? Obviously the Americans realised that the Iranians would try to indoctrinate the troops … and that is what they wanted to do themselves. Do you know that the funding for the Mukhbarat is being paid for by the CIA? They want to retain control.

Bruno said...

Moron99 --


[m99] “Your goal is complete control of Iraq. If you encourage people to act peacefully for the good of the nation then it is detrimental to your quest for power.”

ROTFL! You dumbass, I’m SOUTH AFRICAN, if you haven’t realised yet. WHAT ‘quest for power’ could you possibly be talking about? My opposition is to the United States’ foreign policy, which is driven by the need to control people, economies and resources. As such, I stand for an Iraq free from foreign influence. I stand to ‘gain’ NOTHING whatsoever. You wouldn’t be a friend of ertejaa, would you?

Bruno said...

ertejaa --

You said:

"The blast targeted the mosque entrance, as worshipers gathered for prayers toward the end of the day's Ramadan fast. [...] Instead of condemning these massacres, you remain silent and then demand that the only protection that the Kurds and Shias have to be taken away from them."


Now I'm a little confused. I thought you WANTED to kill and detain the Islamists in Iraq. I thought you WANTED to keep the SHia out. Now you have a problem when they get killed. Is this some sort of selective morality?

Bruno said...

ertejaa --

[e] "There is absolutely no evidence of US helping Saddam with chemicals."

A complete and absolute lie. Dow supplied Saddam with millions of dlooars worth of pesticides used to produce NBC weaponry even AFTER Anfal. Before that, toxins and bacteriums were supplied. I'll go into details if you like. No time left today, I'm afraid

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Truth teller,

There is alot of garbage on the internet. We (Americans) don't believe everything we read on it (Wikipedia), and you shouldn't either. Which is why some of those articles you have posted in the past have struck us as fabrications or, because of the sources, as biased.

" With no Americann no sect seek revenge from the other, it is all American motivated emotions, and will end with the end of the occupation."

I'm sorry, TT, but this strikes me as a naive thought. You seem to be looking at Iraq through rose colored glasses and blaming all of it's problems on the U.S. People like Saddam and al-Sadr were not born and raised in the U.S., and people like them will not stop simply because we are gone.

"What I meant by Sharia, Is the rules present in the Holly Quraan, not what Taliban or Khumainy regimen are imposing over their people."

The same type of people who are trying to destabilize Iraq, are the same type of people as the Taliban and Khomenii followers. They are the type of people who crave power for themselves and to hell with everyone else(pardon my language). They are merely using a religion for their own ends.

"As Iraq contain multi religions, the Sharia should be applied on the Muslim only, i.e. not the only law in Iraq."

Sometimes, TT, your statements are so very sensible.

madtom said...

" Dow supplied Saddam with millions of dlooars worth of pesticides"

Bruno you know that those pesticides had and still have perfectly peaceful usage, you know agriculture!
I await your details.

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Bruno,

Did you forget your medication this morning?

Hurria said...

"you know that those pesticides had and still have perfectly peaceful usage, you know agriculture!"

Yes indeedy! And so did the vast majority of the items blocked by the Americans under the sanctions - you know, things like Chlorine for purifying drinking water, heart-lung machines, pencils, educational supplies, pesticides, paper, medical journals, medicines, hypodermic syringes, ambulances, spare parts for agricultural tractors, spare parts for medical machines - stuff like that.

Moron99 said...

madtom,

one of brutalian's buddies, michael, posted a detailed listing in another location.
Don't look for it again. It was a propaganda faux pax. The detailed manifest showed that US products were agricultural sales dominated by stuff like tractors, tractor parts, fertilizers, and pesticides. The items on the manifest that were not of dual use came from European countries. There was no mention of soviet goods.

for those of you who aren't handy with translation ... "I'll go into details later. No time left now." is Brutalian's way of saying that he has no proof or has already been disproven.

Hurria said...

"We (Americans) don't believe everything we read on it"

Right - you only believe whatever supports what you want to think is true.

TT (Iraqi with more than five decades' direct experience living in Iraq, direct personal knowledge of Iraqi society and culture, well versed in Iraqi history, social and political structure): "With no Americann no sect seek revenge from the other, it is all American motivated emotions, and will end with the end of the occupation."

Lynette (American self-appointed instant expert on Iraq who has never set foot in Iraq, speaks none of its languages, probably had barely heard of it three or four years ago, could not find it on an unlabeled map, knows nothing whatsoever about it beyond what she hears from her government, U.S. manistream media, and her fellow self-appointed experts, has probably never actually talked to an Iraqi, and most likely does not even pronounce the country's name correctly): "I'm sorry, TT, but this strikes me as a naive thought."

Gee, I wonder who is more likely to be naive about Iraq - the above quoted Iraqi, or the self-appointed American instant expert. You be the judge.

"The same type of people who are trying to destabilize Iraq, are the same type of people as the Taliban and Khomenii followers."

And you know this for a fact exactly how - oh yeah, nevermind, I know - you are an expert on Iraq, and besides your government told you so.

"They are the type of people who crave power for themselves and to hell with everyone else(pardon my language)."

And you know this because you have spoken with them and they told you this - or perhaps you have read their minds?

"They are merely using a religion for their own ends."

Unlike your American "Christian" government, of course.

Hurria said...

"The detailed manifest showed that US products were agricultural sales dominated by stuff like tractors, tractor parts, fertilizers, and pesticides."

Golly gosh, some of the very same products blocked by the U.S. under the sanctions! Imagine that!

madtom said...

"Yes indeedy! And so did the vast majority of the items blocked by the Americans under the sanctions"

And yet saddam refused to step aside, damn the consequence to the Iraqi public. It was saddam no matter how the people suffered. but you noticed how those sanctions did not stop saddam from building palace after palace. I wonder where he got the pencils to draw the planes? Maybe you know.

madtom said...

Hurria, you know today there are plenty of Iraqis to talk too. Would you like a list. There are even Iraqi's that are completely against the invasion, yet they tell us all about saddam's Iraq. And there is a very large Iraqi ex-pat community living in the west, they did not come here for the sunshine.

waldschrat said...

Well, it seems that the Iraqi parlaiment heard the opinion of the court of public opinion and decided that 1 vote = 1 vote. Perhaps there is hope for common sense in Iraq!

strykerdad said...

Quotes from another Iraqi expert, Bagdad Bob, who rose to the position of Iraqi Information Minister under the Baathist regime which provided the Iraqi people so much security and national unity while teaching them everything they know about themselves and the world in which they live (except, for the Solifugae of which some seem to be completely ignorant still):


Attempting to Acknowledge What Was Happening Militarily Beyond Baghdad:
March 22, 2003
"Maybe they will enter Umm Qasr and Basra, but how will they enter Baghdad? It will be a big oven for them. They can penetrate our borders but they cannot reach Baghdad. They will try to pull our army and troops out but we are well aware of their plans and they will fail."

March 23, 2003
"In Umm Qasr, the fighting is fierce and we have inflicted many damages. The stupid enemy, the Americans and British, failed completely. They're not making any penetration."

As Televised Reports of U.S. Forces Approaching the Outskirts of Western Baghdad Are Shown:
"They are not any place. They are on the move everywhere. They are a snake moving in the desert. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion."

After U.S. Forces Seized Baghdad's Airport:
"We butchered the force present at the airport. We have retaken the airport! There are no Americans there!"

After U.S. Troops Penetrated Central Baghdad:
April 5, 2003
"Nobody came here. Those America losers, I think their repeated frequent lies are bringing them down very rapidly.... Baghdad is secure, is safe."

April 5, 2003
"They are not near Baghdad. Don't believe them.... They said they entered with... tanks in the middle of the capital. They claim that they - I tell you, I... that this speech is too far from the reality. It is a part of this sickness of their plan. There is no an... - no any existence to the American troops or for the troops in Baghdad at all."

April 6, 2003
"Whenever we attack, they retreat. When we pound them with missiles and heavy artillery, they retreat even deeper. But when we stopped pounding, they pushed to the airport for propaganda purposes."

April 7, 2003
"The Americans are not there. They're not in Baghdad. There are no troops there. Never. They're not at all."

April 7, 2003
"U.S. forces learned a lesson last night they will never forget. We slaughtered them and will continue to slaughter them."

April 7, 2003
"There is no presence of American infidels in the city of Baghdad."

With Media Pictures of U.S. Troops Being Shown Standing Under the Giant Crossed Swords in Saddam's Favorite Parade Grounds in Baghdad, While Giving a Press Briefing Around the Corner:
"There you can see, there is nothing going on."

After U.S. Missiles Destroyed His Office in the Information Ministry and He was Forced to Give Press Briefings on the Street:
"They will be burnt. We are going to tackle them."

Disputing His Own Assertions of No Coalition Troops in Baghdad:
"We blocked them inside the city. Their rear is blocked.... They pushed a few of their armored carriers and some tanks with their soldiers. We besieged them and I think we will finish them soon."

While American Soldiers Are Showering in Saddam's Bathroom Nearby Presidential Palace:
"We have killed most of the [coalition] infidels, and I think we will finish off the rest soon."

After Being Shown Footage of Iraqi Soldiers Surrendering:
"Those are not Iraqi soldiers at all.""The authority of the civil defense ... issued a warning to the civilian population not to pick up any of those pencils because they are booby traps," he said, adding that the British and American forces were "immoral mercenaries" and "war criminals" for such behavior.
"I am not talking about the American people and the British people," he said. "I am talking about those mercenaries. ... They have started throwing those pencils, but they are not pencils, they are booby traps to kill the children."

"We have them surrounded in their tanks"

"The American press is all about lies! All they tell is lies, lies and more lies!"

"I have detailed information about the situation...which completely proves that what they allege are illusions . . . They lie every day."

"Lying is forbidden in Iraq. President Saddam Hussein will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as he is a man of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts


TT, Hurria, are just carrying on an Iraqi tradition. Fortunately they are having as much effect on reality as did BB. Hopefully there are none as foolish as the Iraqi general who heard BB say the Americans had been driven out the the Bagdad airport and went to inspect what they had left behind.

Hurria said...

"And yet saddam refused to step aside, damn the consequence to the Iraqi public."

Madtom, I know this runs counter to to pecular and twisted thinking that passes for logic in your world, but the responsibility for an action lies directly on the shoulders of the actor. Therefore the responsibility for blocking the import of goods and services necessary to the proper functioning of society lies directly on the one who does the blocking. In this case that would be, in the overwhelming majority of instances, the U.S. government. The lives and blood and misery of millions of Iraqis who suffered because of those sanctions is on the hands of the U.S. and no one else.

Saddam should and hopefully will be held accountable for his many crimes. He is not responsible for the crimes of the U.S. government, however.

Oh - and the sanctions were not about Saddam "stepping down".

"It was saddam no matter how the people suffered."

Saddam had his ways of causing people to suffer, and the U.S. has had even more deadly and destructive ways. The blood of Saddam's victims is on his hands, the blood of the U.S.'s victims is on the hands of the U.S.

"but you noticed how those sanctions did not stop saddam from building palace after palace."

Utterly irrelevant.

I wonder where he got the pencils to draw the planes? Maybe you know."

I neither know nor care. What I do care about is the fact that Iraqi school children were not able to have pencils or paper or books thanks to the U.S. blocking them.

Of course, if you think about it, the fact that Saddam could get pencils while school children could not illustrates very well how pointless and morally bankrupt the sanctions were. They did massive harm and damage to the country and its innocent people while leaving the regime unscathed. In fact, the sanctions had the effect of weakening the people while strengthening the regime.

Hurria said...

"it seems that the Iraqi parlaiment heard the opinion of the court of public opinion"

It is extremely unlikely that it as "the opinion of the court of public opinion" they heard. They have been and remain so isolated from "the opinion of the court of public opion" that they wouldn't hear it no matter how loudly it roared. It is far, far more likely that they responded to the strong pressure they were getting from the U.N. and other elements of the international community.

Moron99 said...

hurria,

If another sunni arab were to secure lifelong presidency, do you think it would be much different than Saddam? Do you think he would find peaceful means to maintain his power in the face of majority shia and seccessionist kurds? Do you think he could avoid confrontation with Iran? Personally, I doubt it. Saddam was not some mutant devil from hell. He was the product of a society that solves its internal political disputes with guns and bombs and threats.

Hurria said...

"If another sunni arab were to secure lifelong presidency"

This has nothing to do with Sunni or Arab, you pathetically ignorant, racist sod.

Please go away and try to learn something about the subject you keep pontificating on, and then come back and maybe you will be capable of conversing semi-intelligently about it.

(As if your heros the Shi`a Arabs and Kurds are not all products of the same society you think you know so much about.)

Hurria said...

"If another sunni arab were to secure lifelong presidency"

This has nothing to do with Sunni or Arab, you pathetically ignorant, racist sod.

Please go away and try to learn something about the subject you keep pontificating on, and then come back and maybe you will be capable of conversing semi-intelligently about it.

(As if your heros the Shi`a Arabs and Kurds are not all products of the same society you think you know so much about.)

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Oooh, ouch. I see you've been sharpening your claws, Hurria.

"And you know this because you have spoken with them and they told you this - or perhaps you have read their minds?"

I don't know, Hurria, maybe the deliberate blowing up of children was a none too subtle hint of their character. I could go on, but what is the point?

Moron99 said...

hurria,

if a shai became president for life, then he would not need to be as oppressive. if a kurd became president for life, then hell has frozen over. the third option left is a sunni arab president for life. Since you support the insurgency, this is your defacto goal. It matters not whether you directly or indirectly support it because you support those who pursue it. The question is valid, your answer is not.

John said...

Ertejaa said..."I bet you that the childrenkiller carbomber insurgents and their supporters (Hurria, Bruno (aka Italian)) are now a bit less popular with the real Sunnis (TruthTeller, HNK) who know that it is good for them to participate in the constitutional process."

A couple of concerns come to mind in relation to this comment: One/ is Ert walking around and a seemingly functional member of society while all the while still being able to harbour and disguise this level of dementia??

Two/ Truth, not ever wanting to reduce the integrity of your Blog into flame wars or unnecessary intellectual masturbation, should you ever want to portray the limited awareness of the war apologists, Erts level of enlightenment should be let stand for the world to see, I personally have never seen it expressed so wrecklessly or entirely without imagination or even the remotest possibility of any tripping over insight!

"Please protect Iraq from the occupiers of the world and their pretensious apologists who's one abysmal failure seems to have been their personal inpotence at succeeding at or realizing any personal success in their own miserable lives!"...Bertrand Russel

Bruno/ i should have known at some pont you'd assume my identity and agree with me...or was it agreeing with yourself??? Or whatever...is seems mostly conspiratorial...should have guessed really!

madtom said...

"I know this runs counter to to pecular and twisted thinking that passes for logic in your world"

So I guess saddam had no hand in the sanction, UN sanction, not US sanction remember saddam did something too get the sanctions imposed, remember Hurria? Or was that my Imagination. The sanctions rest in the hands of saddam, and if he would have just stepped aside millions of Iraqi children could have lived and gotten a decent education.

"In fact, the sanctions had the effect of weakening the people while strengthening the regime."

On this we are agreed, they have had the same effect in Cuba. That's why today I support the war, it should get the trouble over with faster and it gives us a better chance to effect lasting change on the ground.

Moron99 said...

ertejaa, i think you are going too far with the personal insults.

Moron99 said...

hmm ... i always imagined her a supremist. I imagine that whatever sect or tribe or group she belongs to thinks that it is genectically and/or culturally superior in some way. Therefore they should be the ruling class. Any other arrangement is unnatural and un-Iraqi ... or at least, so they think.

johninnz said...

Truthteller
Can't you ban or get rid of this Ertejaa individual? He is clogging up your Blog with drivel - "millenia old despotism" etc.
He appears to be a half-educated adolescent and is definitely contributing nothing to the discussion.

Hurria said...

"if a shai became president for life, then he would not need to be as oppressive."

Once more you proudly display your simple-minded ignorance not only of every aspect of Iraq, but of the very nature of a dictatorship.

Moron99 said...

hurria,

since you avoid answering, I assume that you know full well .... a new sunni dictator will have to be even more oppressive than saddam to keep the shia in check. Do you even care? I doubt it.

Hurria said...

I avoid nothing. Your remarks about Sunni dictators versus Shi`i dictators and who will keep whom in check and so on is nothing more than ignorant blather. It proves you know nothing about Iraq, and even less about dictatorship. Unfortunately, there is not enough time in the world to educate you.

Bruno said...

On the pesticides etc –

[m99] “for those of you who aren't handy with translation ... "I'll go into details later. No time left now." is Brutalian's way of saying that he has no proof or has already been disproven.”

Uh, Moronican, I *don’t* make statements unless I’m sure of what I’m talking about. Unlike you, Moron.

For example:

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds
By Michael Dobbs - Washington Post - Dec30, 2002

“The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.
[ … ]
In principle, Washington was strongly opposed to chemical warfare, a practice outlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In practice, U.S. condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons ranked relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particularly compared with the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.”
[…]
When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile components, and computers from American suppliers, including such household names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being used for military purposes.
[…]
In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."”


This CLEARLY proves that ertejaa is a LIAR and that Moron99 is WRONG.

You can point to the relative volumes of arms sales all you want, but the fact remains that the USA supplied Saddam with at least some of the goods used to produce CW agents, and what’s more the US helped ‘calibrate’ their use for greater efficiency.

HURRIA, of course, cuts straight through the BS and to the point. The point is the US’s hypocritical stance vis a vis the issue of arms control. When Saddam was on the American side, exporting pesticides was OK. When he wasn’t, why, even pencils were too dangerous for him to have. That’s the point.

Arms control is not an end in itself to the US, but a means to execute policy. That’s hypocrisy. And Hurria is, of course, correct that the sanctions had NOTHING to do with Saddam ‘stepping down’. Never had. They were supposed to be about arms control. And the US managed to screw that up too, turning them into a weapon of genocide. Oh, very well done.

Bruno said...

Ertejaa --

[e] “Hurria - how come you never condemn Zarqawist and Islamist bombing of Iraqis, like the Mosque in Hilla yesterday and the bus in Sadr City today?”

Ertejaa, how come you NEVER condemn the killing of innocent Iraqis by trigger happy US troops? How come you say nothing about the hardships that the Occupation has brought to Iraq? How come you say nothing about the six Iraqis executed by Allawi without judicial process?

Come now.

Playing the ‘condemn’ game is illogical and a stupid waste of time. Must we all preface every statement with a condemnation of the latest massacre or atrocity? Gosh, what if we miss one? Does that mean we supported the action? Stop wasting our time.

And, going on about Zarqawi when he is probably a ‘false flag’ creation of US intelligence is completely a waste of time.

[e] “Good news folks. Of the 12 bridges west of Habbaniya, 8 of them have been destroyed in the past few days, and the other 4 are under the control of the National Iraqi army.”

I see that you are celebrating the destruction of yet more IRAQI infrastructure by the US Occupation and its stooges. Now, nevermind the inconvenience and disruption of life that this will cause ordinary Iraqi citizens. This is Infrastructure that will be repaired BY the Americans with Iraqi money, at wildly inflated prices. Those destroyed bridges ultimately means less money to support vital schemes, such as the Food Rationing. And you celebrate? How much are the CIA-run Allawists paying you again?

[e] “[…] how come they could not save the bridges?”

You have really no idea of what a guerrilla strategy is, do you?

People are more important than holding land. And given that the people of Iraq LIVE in Iraq, and that they are fighting the Occupation – it means that they have PLENTY of time. Plenty of time to slowly wear away the resolve of the occupier, who does NOT live there, and who therefore has less will to remain. The Vietnamese fought half a century against every major power in the region, including the French, Americans and Chinese, and they won. Don’t underestimate the power of an intelligent guerrilla struggle.

[e] “IMO, it is a matter of great pride for Arabs to have achieved democracy and freedoms in Iraq after so much sacrifice.”

Democracy and freedom? When the Iraqi parliament has repeatedly flouted its own laws? When Americans can sue Iraqis for wrongful death in Iraq, but Iraqis can’t sue Americans for the same thing in Iraq? Or in America, for that matter. When there is ‘press freedom’ except if you say something contrary to what the ‘government’ wants you to say – in which case they lock you up for life, as you were so kind to mention?

If freedom means being a slave in your own country, ertejaa, then Arabs have a funny idea of freedom. Or maybe it’s not Arabs. Maybe it’s just you.

Tell us, Ertejaa, is Allawi still paying you a stipend?

Bruno said...

Hurria --

[m99] "if a shai became president for life, then he would not need to be as oppressive."
[hurria] Once more you proudly display your simple-minded ignorance not only of every aspect of Iraq, but of the very nature of a dictatorship.

LOL! Picking on Moron99 is so easy. Then again, he makes it easy by writing nonsense like the above.


Johninnz --

As an OT aside: I don’t know what you’re talking about. Springbok? Isn’t that a furry antelope? As for rugby, I never heard of it. ;)

Truth teller said...

I think it is the time to delete all ertegaa comments, he really goes too far.

Truth teller said...

moron

"What do you mean by this? Are saying that the Sunni Arabs can subdue the sheei and Kurd?"

When I said is "The Sunni Arabs will not and never afraid from the Sheei Arabs an so is true for the Kurds"
I meant by that that the Sheei Arabs and the Sunni Arabs both are Muslim and Arabs, that is mean they are brothers in religion and brother in nationality.

The majority of Kurds are Muslims, it mean the Kurds and Arabs are brothers in religion.
If you understand it in a different way, that is because you think in that way, the problem is in you.

They remained as such for centuries, only when the US come in, the sects appeared.
What Saddam did to some of the Sheeis and Kurds was a political not a sectarian crimes.

Saddam was a Sunni, yes but 60% of his high ranker Baathist are Sheei. There were at least 3 Kurds Minister in Saddam government.

johninnz said...

Truthteller
Congratulations on deleting that Ertejaa idiot.
I think if you are to continue your Blog you will need to be much more ruthless about deleting commenters who offend you by their ignorance or persistence. They will get the message, and go away, and this will allow more civilised discussion to take place. After all, they are your guests - if they won't remove their shoes in your house, why allow them in?
These Americans who seem to know everything about Shia and Sunni are very annoying.
Abu Kahleel was the best Iraqi blogger, in my opinion, he was always informative. He seems to have stopped now, I think he became depressed.
He described once how, in the "mixed" area of Baghdad where he lived, the Sunni and Shia neighbours used to joke about their differences. But earlier this year, he said "the joking has stopped."
He also mentioned a Minister in the Allawi government who was a Sunni, but changed to Shia because the inheritance rules were more favorable to his family circumstances.
He mentioned that there are about 1 million Kurds living in Baghdad.
Your society is so much more complicated than your invaders can ever understand.

johninnz said...

Blogging is complicated too.
Without it, you would not have received the assistance to your Clinic that Wladschrat organised.
But he also seems to support the idea of Strykers, and their foreign crews who are not welcomed by most of your countrymen, rolling through the streets of Mosul indefinitely.
The basic debate now in the US seems to be between "give up, it's hopeless, just get out" and "keep trying to get Iraq right, however long it takes." What is your preference? Has the US had its chance to show what it can do for Iraq?

Moron99 said...

Hurria,
you avoid the obvious. If there was a shia dictator, then both the badrist and sadrist could be co-opted without the need for excessive violence. It is not that one dictator is better than another. They would all have to murder tens or hundreds of thousands to secure their power and they would all eventually become like saddam. But it is all moot. There will not be a shia dictator because the powers in Najaf and Arbil would not allow it.

The real question is why you support those who wish to establish a new dictator. Any new dictator will have to slaughter hundreds of thousands in order to subdue the population. Why do you choose to support them?

I believe the answer is that you think yourself superior to other Iraqi. Your defense will be to deflect away from your support of those who wish to install a new dictator. You will avoid any possible discussion of what would happen if they succeed.

strykerdad said...

Saddam was a Sunni, yes but 60% of his high ranker Baathist are Sheei. There were at least 3 Kurds Minister in Saddam government.

You keep using this purported statistic to prove that sectarian conflict among Muslims in Iraq and the world at large is an artifice of the American domination. You know, there were many Jews who collaborated with the Nazis and served as administrators in even the worst ghettos and death/labor camps. So that some Iraqis chose to get along to go along proves nothing other than Iraqis are human, too. Some, possibly more secular Iraqis, no doubt found that participating in the tyranny more rewarding personally or may have even had less selfish reasons for doing so. It may have taken brutal tyranny to keep such tribal and sectarian conflicts in the background, but the removal of that suppressant did not create the conflict that is now coming to full flame. Denying it won't make it go away, either. Please, prove to me that there was no conflict among Muslim sects until America interferred, smoldering or otherwise. The Arabic press speaks of it every bit as much as does the American press--at least the English versions I have read seem to.

You say it is political, but sectarian divisions are just that--they aren't exclusive of one another. For instance, was the refual of Saddam to allow pilgrimages to Karbala and Najaf based on political or sectarian reasons? Can you clearly separate the two in all cases of conflicts among Iraqis in the Saddam era? Were not some of the uprisings he brutally suppressed due in part and defined by sectarian or ethnic conflicts in existence? Did the uprisings in the North just happen to be Kurdish and Shias in the South? Not all Kurds and Shias rebelled, but that doesn't mean it was not a Kurdish and Shia rebellion. Your position seems without any clear logic.


I understand much of the increasingly effecive Iraqi forces currently in Mosul are Sunni and have pretty good relations with their American allies. Which may distress you. M Yon's latest has a very extensive account of what is going on with American and Iraq efforts in Mosul today. I for one would be very interested in hearing how your observations differ from his report. His sound very encouraging and once again is in agreement with what I hear from those serving there. I would think that a man in your position would at least have some interest in what they think has happened and is happening in your city, even if it is in conflict with your own thoughts. You probably have more insight into Iraq culture and society that they do, but I submit they have some insight into what is happening in your city that you could benefit from. And maybe take hope from, if you are capable and really want what you say you want for Mosul. Though I'm really not sure what you want.

Hurria said...

Moron99,

What looks obvious to your uninformed mind is not at all obvious to anyone with any real knowledge of the place, the people, and the issues.

Hurria said...

Stykerdad, I suggest that if you want accurate, complete information you find other sources than unabashed propagandists like Michael Yon.

Truth teller said...

john

Abu Kahleel is back, and published a new informative post about ths constitution.

strykerdad said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tilo Reber said...

"Most other civilised nation regulate gun ownership fairly stringently."

Are you talking about those civilized nations in Europe who came up with the ideas of Nazism, Fascism, Imperialim and Communism. Yes, the law abiding people of Europe are disarmed. The criminals, however, are well armed.

Tilo Reber said...

"Stykerdad, I suggest that if you want accurate, complete information you find other sources than unabashed propagandists like Michael Yon."

Yes, he should only listen to unabashed propagandists like hurria.

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