Thursday, October 13, 2005

We and the Constitution

Two days left before the vote for the constitution, but till now no body in Mosul have seen a copy of it which supposed to be distributed to the population before the referendum.
In addition till now we and our neighbors don't know yet the place where to vote which is necessory to be known in advance since there is a curfew for all vehicles started from wednesday Oct 12 at 10 pm till monday Oct 17 at 5 am. That mean no body can use a car for trnsportation from place to place inside the city, the schools, the University and all the governmental offices are closed for 4 days.

"Saleh al-Mutlaq, head of the National Dialogue Council, stated that the decision of the Sunni Arabs is based on pure scientific grounds. This is the outcome of several meetings between prominent Sunni figures and other political blocs opposed to the constitution. As the constitution translates into the division of the country and the elimination of Iraq’s Arab identity, Al-Mutlaq says, the Sunni Arabs should combat this constitution by all possible peaceful means. In his eyes, only if the issue of federalism, for example, is postponed for future negotiations can this position be altered. This is a clear shift in the Sunnis’ stand: from boycotting the referendum to participating with a clear “No” vote."


Yesterday night there was a news from the Iraqi Islamic party, who declared that he will share in the vote on condition to reconsider the unsettled items after the election of the new government.

"The Shiites and Kurds have agreed that the newly elected parliament after December 15 will reopen negotiations with the Sunni Arabs on the constitution. This step was enough to convince the Iraqi Islamic Party to drop its call for a Sunni Arab rejection fo the constitution in the October 15 referendum."



58 comments:

Truth teller said...

Moron99

I would vote NO

Giubotte. said...

@ Stukasdad, 10/13/2005 07:21:03 PM.

"I thought the document was being amended to suit a number of the Sunni parties just yesterday? How could they have distributed copies already? I read where the UN delivered 200,000 copies to Mosul nearly a week ago, but I suppose they will have to be amended? Are there newpapers readily available and have they printed the text of the document? It may take some individual effort to get an updated copy or the Stryker instruments of war may be used to deliver them as they delivered the ballots last election."

Oh my, these Stukas or Panzer or Catapults or other "instruments of war" do truly seem to obsess you... nice way of spreading 'freedom & democracy' US-style among the unwilling!

As for what you think, you seem to give the lie to the same 'freedom & democracy', even US-style.
Were you to vote on a new US Constitution, would you accept the idea of not having read it before voting on it?
Of course, it should have been distributed one month and a half ago, according to TAL and to the UN endorsement.
It did not happen.
At long last, the UN were given the 'final' text to be distributed. Well, not even your wondrous Strykers will be able to deliver it in time for the referendum.

As for the last amendements, they are quite simply ILLEGAL and NULL & VOID (the text the Iraqi citizens are supposed to vote on is the one already printed by the UN, but not yet distributed throughout all Iraq).
So, no, they won't "have to be amended": they are NOT part of the 'Constitution' the Iraqis are called to vote on.
They were pushed through, far beyond the last of the last even vaguely legal dateline, and with NO legality at all, by the US Ambassador, Mr. Khalizaid, just in order to have some 'Sunni' voices (the opportunists of the 'Iraqi Islamic Party') asking the people to vote 'YES' to this Mickey Mouse Constitution.

Giubotte. said...

Dear Truth Teller, 10/13/2005 10:33:26 PM.

"I would vote NO".

I do truly hope that you'll be able to ditch and dump for ever the Iraq-destroying so-called 'Constitution', and so kick away all puppets of the present 'Interim Government' and 'Interim Opposition', both the pro-US ones & the pro-Iran ones; and that at the following immediate elections a patriotic united Iraqi front, asking for the immediate withdrawal of the invaders, will be able to stand.

But, sincerely, I'm quite afraid that the US and various puppets (in this case, especially, the PUK & KDP, which have shown themselves to be very good at it, in January) have already taken measures to completely rig the results (with the help of this 'Iraqi Islamic Party').

It is obvious that all those Iraqis who are against the US occupation and the destruction of Iraq will vote 'NO' on Saturday; and in the aftermath of the referendum I imagine that you, Truth Teller, will be immediately able to tell us if there was complete fraud and rigging of the results (apart from the obvious fraud, that already happened, of not making available in time the text of the 'Constitution' you are supposed to vote for or reject).

I do hope that, in this case of the referendum, I am a very mistaken prophet.

Pat in NC said...

None of us commenting have a vote. I hope to see Iraq unite and regain peace. I commend you TT for the obvious caring you have for your patients and for your family.
I have read Najma for a long time and am sorry to see the effects of the upheaval in your nation both in the tragedies which have effected innocent Iraqis and the way in which the sweet, open mind of Najma has been hardened by her experience. I am not criticizing her, I merely am commenting on the changes I have read about. There are many honorable Iraqis who will vote no and many who will vote yes and that is as it should be. If this constitution is not accepted, I hope that with the December elections a more balanced group will be elected and a better document written. I pray for the good Iraqi people as well as for the coalition troops. While we may never agree, I respect you and wish only the best for you, your patients and your family.

madtom said...

I would vote "no", I think everyone already knew that, as I have said it before.

I would love to read a detailed reason from Truth Teller as to why exactly he would vote no. He seems way to smart for it just to be because "sunni groups" said no.

madtom said...

Johninnz, I find your comments puzzling, I would have to guess that you have not read the document, or you did not understand it?

Truth teller said...

This comment is directed to Arabic readers only.

قبل ثمانين عاما، ثار العراقيون على الاحتلال الانجليزي في ثورة العشرين الشهيرة، وكادت هذه الثورة أن تطرد المحتل الى الأبد لولا خدعة (الانتخابات) و (الدستور) التي ابتكرها (أبو ناجي)، لكن الخدعة لم تنطل على شاعر العراق معروف الرصافي، والذي أنشد قائلا:

علـم ودستور ومجلس أمة ...................... كل عن المعـنى الصحيح محرّفُ

أسماءُ ليس لنا سوى ألفاظُها ...................... أمّـا معانيهـا فليست تُعرفُ

من يقرأ الدستـورَ يعلم أنه ....................... وفقـاً لصكّ الاحتلال مصنّفُ

من ينظرُ العلمَ المرفرفَ يلقهُ ..................... في عزّ غيرِ بني البـلادِ يرفرفُ

من يأتِ مجلسنـا يصدّق أنه ...................... لـمُرادِ غير الناخبين مؤلّـفُ

أفهكذا تبقى الحكومة عندنا ....................... كلَماً تمـوَّهُ للورى وتُزخرَفُ

كثُرت دوائرُهـا وقلّ فعالها ....................... كالطبلِ يكبرُ وهو خالٍ أجوفُ

كـم ساءَ منها ومن وزرائها ....................... عمـلٌ بمنفعةِ المواطنِ مُجحِفُ

تشكو البلادُ سـياسةً ماليةً ......................... تجتـاحُ أمـوالَ البلادِ وتُتلِفُ

تُجبي ضرائبها الثقالُ وإنما ........................ في غير منفعـةِ الرعية تُصرفُ

حَكَمَت مشددةً علينا حكمها .......................... أمّا على الدُخلاءِ فهي تُخففُ

وإذا دعا داعي البلادِ إلى الوغى ..................... أنظنُّ أن هناك مـن يتخلفُ ؟

أيُذلُّ قومٌ ناهضون وعندهم .......................... شرفٌ يُعزّزُ جانبيه المُرهفُ ؟

كم من نواصي للعــــدا ........................ ولحىً بأيدي الثائـرين ستُنتَفُ

إن لم نُجالد بالسيوف خصومنا ...................... فالمجــدُ باكٍ والعُلـى تتأففُ



وسبحان الله ما اشبه اليوم بالبارحة.. فهل ستمر مؤامرة (الدستور) الأمريكي على الشعب العراقي ؟

madtom said...

"On the other hand (the third hand?) if it’s all up for changes after the December elections anyway"

What did you mean here?

Anonymous said...

truth teller thanks for that poem!

madtom said...

"By a simple majority vote, according to one source."

Get better sources! I can help if you wish.

Truth teller said...

Hot News

Now in Mosul, it is 9:50 AM Saturday 10/15/2005.
I just received a call from a neighbor telling me not to go to th proposed place for voting because some of the neighbor went there and found NOTHING. There was no place for voting. They called the telephone no. provided for more informations. The answer was "Wait an hour and call again, we will supply the boxes and the personale in Al-Salam hospital to make it the place of voting for your neighborhood.
Al-Salam hospital is too far from our neighborhood to be reached on feets, since no vehicles are allowed to move in the city strted from wedensday night till Monday 10/17/05 morning. in addition the biggest hospital in the city is occupied by the ING who changed it to a semi military base.

I smell a strange odor!!

Truth teller said...

An update

The people who went to vote, and found the center closed are directed to another near by center, it was opened, but the people their refuse to allow them to vote, they said they can vote only in the first center.
Later on a news come that the other center is also closed!!! why???? they said that the Peshmerga come and close those center!!!

There were a crowd of people waiting to vote when about 10 police cars with the cheif of police paeesd and stopped to see what is the problem. The police cheif told the people that the peshmerga closed those center and they (the police) is going to open them later in the day.

At 12pm a police car with loud speaker announced that those centers are opened for votting.

I will go now to check and to vote if possible.
It is 12:43 pm now in Mosul

Truth teller said...

Another update

We (me and my wife) went to the votting center and vote. There were over crowd there, at least two strykers, two other American vehicles, and many Police cars there.
But we found our way in, and vote "NO".

My impresson is that most of the people I met there, were goining to vote NO.

Eric Wilner said...

Under the circumstances, I too probably would have voted NO. I have a general policy of voting against anything on the ballot (here in California, USA) that I can't decipher; being presented with a rather over-sized, over-complicated proposed constitution, with hasty last-minute amendments making it difficult to know what exactly I was voting on, would certainly motivate me to vote against it.
I'm glad the opposition is taking the vote seriously. Being able to vote against the government (and having that vote mean something) is what democracy is all about.

waldschrat said...

Hurrah for your decision to vote!

Voting is a first step. I know that when I vote I often find that the majority voted against my choice. Acceptance of the will of the majority in such cases is the second step.

I heard an interesting analysis on the radio yesterday of the strategic effectiveness of the voting patterns of black people in America. The speaker said 95% of blacks vote for the Democratic party's candidates, and suggested that this defeats them and deprives them of power for the following reasons: the Republican party has no reason to serve their interests because their support will never be won, and the Democratic party has no reason to serve them because their loyalty is assured regardless. I guess the lesson is that one must consider one's vote seriously and make the best decision possible.

All I can say is that voting is better than not voting and elections are a better way of settling disputes than violence. I wish nothing but the best for Iraq and the people of Mosul.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

I'm glad to hear you and your wife voted, TT.

Truth teller said...

strykerdad

"Rejection seemed much less likely after Ninevah, one of the three crucial northern provinces that Sunni Arab opponents pushed hard to swing their way, appeared to have gone strongly for a "yes" vote."

Sorry to disappoint you, but all the available indexes indicate the opposits.

"According to a count from 260 of the province's 300 polling stations, about 300,000 in Ninevah voted "yes" for the constitution, and only 80,000 voted "no," according to Samira Mohammed, a local elections commission spokeswoman in the provincial capital Mosul, and Kurdish official Abdul-Ghani Boutani."

your figures and your sources are very suspicious, by a matter of fact those figures are impossible.
Any way, it is only hours, and we all will see the results.

"Your 'facts' are that TT heard that peshmerga had shut down some voting sites--but were they in fact ING (many of whom are Kurdish) and did they shut down the site temporarily because the Iraqi police failed to secure it as I am told happended in several sites?"

No SD what you told is wrong, the center was closed at 5:00 AM, two hours before the due time. The other center closed about 10:30 AM, The police cheif told the people in my neighborhood that the peshmerga not the ING closed the centers and the police is going to open them, and that is what happened.

Let me tell you some thing, when I read your figures a rush to the phone and called some of my relatives in different areas of Mosul, all assure me that the majority of the people voted NO.
If your figures are correct that's mean there were a huge fraud going on! which I hope not.

"In Mosul's lower-middle-class neighborhood of Jazayer, voters expressed their joy over the referendum with a Kurdish debka , swirling and tapping their feet as Kurdish songs came uncontrollably from their mouths."

Hay al jazayer is a small neighborhood with majority of Kurds, they probably celebrated the defeat of the constitution.

BTW why not wait and see what the end result will be. No need to embarrass your self.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Excerpt from an article on the CCN website.

"Most Shiite and Kurdish-dominated provinces were running heavily in favor of the constitution. Anbar province around Ramadi was expected to strongly reject it, as was Salahaddin province, which contains Saddam's hometown of Tikrit.

The contest was closer in the northern province of Niniveh around the city of Mosul, which is split between Sunni Arabs and Kurds.

A senior Iraqi official said on Monday that while 424,00 of the province's 778,000 voters said "No" to the charter, this fell short of the two thirds necessary to reject it.

Kurdish leaders, who originally inserted the three-province veto clause to protect their own interests, have denied Arab accusations of packing Mosul with Kurdish voters."


here is the full article. Assuming they don't move it.

Truth teller said...

john

"how much faith do you and your neighbours have in a fair count, Truthteller? Basically a lot, a bit suspicious, very doubtful, no faith at all?"

Just before the votting we have no faith at all, but when the circumstances I described previously occured with the troubles associated with it, which made the cheif of police to come in person and promise to solve the problems, in addition to the large number of people who come just to vote NO, merely as a response to the closure of the votting centers. All these together make it very difficult to deceive the count's result although it is not impossible.
So I am very doubtful of the honesty of the officers worked their as most of them are either Kurds or puppet Arabs.

madtom said...

"So I am very doubtful of the honesty of the officers worked their as most of them are either Kurds or puppet Arabs."

This from someone that said that in the past there was no sectarian division within Iraq, that Arab and Kurd lived together in peace. For a peace loving Iraqi you don't seem to have much trust in your neighbors

madtom said...

You know there is a simple solution to this problem of pesky Kurds and puppets running everything. Go to the polls in the next election and elect representative that you like and that you trust. That way there will be less doubt in your mind and you can sleep easy that your interest are being looked after.

Mad Canuck said...

There is some disagreement in the news media as to the vote count in Nineveh: the Associated Press (which many news organizations picked up this morning) cited a 78% "yes" vote in Nineveh, while CNN quoted a senior election official as giving a 54% "no" vote in Nineveh. I wrote a post on this topic earlier today myself, here is a link.

An Iraqi election official also cautioned earlier today that none of the early results being reported by the news media today were officially released by their office. Thus, all this discussion we are having today may be based on completely bogus and erroneous results.

The key, once the official results come out, will not be whether the majority in Nineveh vote yes or no, it will be whether the "no" vote is 67% or greater (two thirds), since a two-thirds "no" vote is needed in three provinces to veto the constitution.

Truth teller said...

moron99

"They are looking for evidence that people who do not live in Ninevah went and voted in Ninevah. If the number of voters in Kurd province is under the average and the number of Kurdish ballots in Ninevah is disproportionately high, then they have reason to suspect election fraud."

That is exactly what happened!! In addition, they (just for the porposes of the ballot) considered both Agra and Al-Sheikhan as part of Nenevah province. Those two districts were regarded as part of Kurdistan since 1991.

Truth teller said...

madtom
"This from someone that said that in the past there was no sectarian division within Iraq, that Arab and Kurd lived together in peace."

This is just to proven what American freedom and democracy bring to us. We used to live as brothers and now after you liberated us, we live as potential enemies.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

"But if you wanted to change his attitude, wouldn’t it be better to use reason rather than snide sarcastic put-downs like that above?"

Oh, please, John. Your holier than thou attitude is rather tedious. The comments made by people here such as Italian, Bruno, Hurria and yes YOU are certainly just as snide and sarcastic. If not more so. Please spare us the phony nice routine.

"We used to live as brothers..."

I see. That is why people in Halabja and elsewhere were summarily killed. Well, with family like that one doesn't need enemies, does one?

Is that the kind of political system you really want? One where if someone disagrees with you, you kill them?

Here is an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal dated October 14, 2005 regarding Tal Afar. Sorry, I don't have a link to the online version. For anyone with a paper copy it is the article that starts on page 1 with the headline of "For U.S. Military, A Key Iraq Mission is Averting Civil War".

"In May 2005, not long after he arrived in the city, Col. Hickey sat in on the interrogation of a 17-year old member of a Sunni assassination cell. Under questioning, the boy explained that his job was to hold the legs of the victim while somneone else lopped off the head. When the interrogator asked the boy what he aspired to, "he responded that he wanted to be the guy who got to cut off the head," Col. Hickey recalls. "It was chilling.""

Is that the kind of person you call a Mujahid? Is that the kind of person you are proud of? Is that the kind of "civilization" you want Iraq to be famous for?

Truth teller said...

Without comment!!!
I am sorry, it is too difficult to be translated into english.

من تقارير المراقبين
15 أكتوبر 2005

هذه تقارير جاءتنا من مراقبي شبكتي تموز و شمس و التي راقبت عملية الاستفتاء في جميع انحاء العراق و ذلك بمساعدة مؤسسة فريدريش إيبرت / مكتب عمان

في السليمانية واربيل. قام عدد من مسؤولي مراكز الاقتراع بملئ مئات من اوراق الاقتراع بنعم ووضعها في الصناديق وذلك بتوجيه من بعض القوى الحزبية، وفيما يلي بعض المراكز التي حدثت بها هذه الخروقات:
مركز مدرسة بيسراني رقم 216010
مركز مدرسة 1 شباط رقم 216009
مركز مدرسة ئاكام رقم 216011
مركز مدرسة رامان رقم 215003
مركز المركز الصحي رقم 215008
مركز مدرسة هلبجة رقم 215009
مركز مدرسة شيروانة رقم 212012
مركز اعدادية داراتو رقم 215011
مركز مدرسة بيخود رقم 215006
مركز مدرسة داستان رقم 215010
مركز مدرسة بيشمركة رقم 215007
مركز مدرسة سابات رقم 216006
مركز مدرسة تريفة رقم 215012
مركز مدرسة جوتيار رقم 203017
مركز مدرسة كسنزان رقم 216005
مركز مدرسة حمرين رقم 204009
مركز اعدادية التجارة رقم 204002
مركز مدرسة بليسة رقم 210001
مركز مدرسة رابرين رقم 202015
مركز مدرسة هلويست رقم 202008
مركز مدرسة هلكورد رقم 201002
مركز مدرسة جوار جرا رقم 202005
مركز مدرسة شاكار رقم 212202
مركز مدرسة بابان رقم 202015
***
وفي اربيل ايضا وفي المركز رقم 21001 وهو مدرسة بليصة و وبالتحديد في المحطة رقم 2 قام مدير المحطة باملاء مائتين بطاقة واشر على كلمة نعم وادخلها بنفسه الى صندوق الاصوات وامام اعين المراقبين والموظفين .

وفي مدرسة شاكار رقم 2002/212 وفي المحطة رقم 4و 5 لا يذهب المواطنين الى غرفة التصويت اي مكان التصويت بل يقومون بادلاء اصواتهم بشكل علني امام الموظفين عند تسجيل اسماءهم وان ذهب بعضهم الى المكان السري للتصويت يقوم مدير المحطة بالدخول معه ورؤية جوابه

The source:
http://www.niqash.org/blogs/referendum/ .

Anonymous said...

IRAQ--Please explain--It all seems moot to me as either way it's all up for reconsideration--the question is if there will be another transitional government doing the work or a more permanent government. Since it seems the constitution will be open to complete overhaul by those elected in December, do you think that the method laid out in the consti

madtom said...

"This is just to proven what American freedom and democracy bring to us. We used to live as brothers and now after you liberated us, we live as potential enemies."

Trying not to upset the sensibilities of your readers let me start this by saying.
May I suggest to you that what you are seeing are the long held frustrations that were buried deep within your society. Could it be that what the liberation has done is bring these issues to the surface. Maybe people feel that it's now or never and want to make sure that they are heard loud and clear. This could even be true with people you have known all you life and that you would never suspect how they felt, and may very well never told you before how they really felt about certain issues.
Sometimes these things are very hard to see when you happen to be part of the top. I see it in my own community. Many of my older friends, people that grew up in the pre castro Cuba do not and will not admit or see any of the social disparity that existed, some of which were just the times, and were no different anywhere in the world, some of them were specific to Cuban society. And of course the dictator took hold of some of those very issues to grab on to power promising change that never came, and that has in fact only gotten much worse over the years. But the fact remains that if the dictator were to drop dead tomorrow, we could never return to the old days, nor would my generation permit such a thing. We see the injustice that they are unable to see.
No doubt our current society also has inequalities which we are blind too, but that our children will see quite clearly.

Some of your Kurdish friends are aware of your postings on the other blog and are gathering their troops to counter what you have said there. So I will not comment and wait to see what happens. In today's liberated Iraq they have their own voice and a means to express it. But if I could make a suggestion. Maybe you could use your blog to invite them as friends to voice their side of the story to avoid any unnecessary acrimony

Bruno said...

[lynette] “I see. That is why people in Halabja and elsewhere were summarily killed.”

But Lynette, you ARE aware the US government, through the Pelletiere report, made it clear it believes IRAN was responsible for the Halabja massacre. Are you anti-American now? ;)

[lynette] “In May 2005, not long after he arrived in the city, Col. Hickey sat in on the interrogation of a 17-year old member of a Sunni assassination cell. Under questioning, the boy explained that his job was to hold the legs of the victim while somneone else lopped off the head.”

OH PU-LEEZE! This crap is so obviously propaganda on the line of “Iraqis killing Kuwaiti babies” and Saddam’s ‘woodchipper’ machine that it doesn’t warrant a reply. Let’s get real, OK? There is news that is plausible, and there is trash like this. If I were so dumb as to believe this, I’d be also quoting “resistance reports” of American tank columns being annihilated on a daily basis. Lynette, you GOTTA learn how to sift between fantasy and reality, y’ hear?


Strykerdad –

[sdad] “On his post about Americans planting car bombs, I reject that on its face as it is almost as ridiulous as the hidden American dead story.”

OK, see, here is something to debate about.

On the face of it, the noble Americans would NEVER stoop to such a tactic.

But, the fact is you already have.

Historically, the US/ UK used just such a ‘false flag’ operation to discredit Mossadeq in Iran, 1953. Clerical offices were bombed, the Communists blamed, and the rumour spread that Mossadeq was sympathetic to their cause. In Italy, the CIA funnelled explosives via a circuitous route to fascists which blew up a train station in Bologna, after which the Commies were again blamed. False casus belli such as the Gulf of Tonkin ‘incident and the false WMD story also come to mind.

So, the question is less WOULD the US do it than ARE they doing it? I have seen several reports detailing the planting of explosives into civilian vehicles. That British SAS thing was also very fishy. To be honest, I’m not really sure how credible these reports are. (The sources seem somewhat vague.) Although, the fact remains, it is true that MANY Iraqis believe this to be the case.

In an absence of direct evidence, we have to resort to circumstantial evidence and logic. I find it useful to put myself in the various parties’ shoes for a second.

Setting of car bombs that kill bunches of Iraqi civilians and especially Shias serves a Sunni – based Resistance no purpose. Guerrilla armies thrive on civilian support, and anything that turns sentiment against them is negative. Secondly, even IF the Sunnis really had a secret diabolical plan to do away with the Shias, why try to execute it when the US Army is running the show and providing support to various Shia militias etc.? It would make FAR more sense to take on one enemy at a time, assuming that such a diabolical plan exists, than to take them all on at once. Militarily and politically, sectarian tensions do NOTHING to advance a patriotic Resistance’s cause.

Look at what happened during the First battle for Fallujah. The Shiites rose up in support of the Sunnis in Fallujah, and the US was forced to back off. It was clear that a sense of unity between Iraqis was detrimental to US war aims, was it not? Again, Iraqi unity can only benefit a legitimate Resistance. So who stands to gain from sectarian tension? Who gains from random car bombs stoking such feelings? HMM.

Furthermore, if one examines who is in charge of the US at the moment, well, it’s the Neoconservatives. You know, those Israel – luvin’ chaps? Their thinking is reflected in a document called “A Clean Break” which was written by them and their close Zionist friends. (Some of the authors : Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser )

This in fact details the need to break Iraq up through destabilisation and details the need to redraw the middle east into a new format so that Israel can play power games with the Arabs and impose its will upon them. Example:

“A Clean Break”

“Work closely with Turkey and Jordan to contain, destabilize, and roll-back some of its most dangerous threats. This implies clean break from the slogan, "comprehensive peace" to a traditional concept of strategy based on balance of power.
[…]
This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions.
[…]
For Syria, this could be the prelude to a redrawing of the map of the Middle East which would threaten Syria's territorial integrity. Since Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly, it would be understandable that Israel has an interest in supporting the Hashemites in their efforts to redefine Iraq
[…]” //end excerpt

A sectarian, divided Iraq in which ‘Sunni’ ‘Shia’ and “Kurd” struggle for dominance fits right in with the strategy described. And, let’s remember this document was drafted by people who are very close to (or ARE Neocons) the Neocon rulers of Bushite America.

Again. Who gains from the sectarian tension caused by the car-bombing of Mosques? Who gains from the outrageous statements of the probably mythical Zarqawi?

NOT any patriotic Iraqi Resistance, that’s for sure. I think we all know who gains, and who is able to exploit power differences between Iraqis for its own ends.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Bruno,

Some reading for you in your spare time.

Excerpt from Human Rights Watch report.

"7 Books on the Iran-Iraq War have routinely echoed the unsubstantiated report that both sides had used chemical weapons in Halabja. This notion originated in a study for the U.S. Army War College: Stephen C. Pelletiere, Douglas V. Johnson II and Leif R. Rosenberger, Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East (Carlisle Barracks, PA: Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College, 1990). It is repeated in a later book by Pelletiere, a former U.S. intelligence officer, The Iran-Iraq War: Chaos in a Vacuum (New York: Praeger, 1992). This strongly pro-Iraqi work comments, "On May 23 (sic), in fighting over the town, gas was used by both sides. As a result scores (sic) of Iraqi Kurdish civilians were killed. It is now fairly certain that Iranian gas killed the Kurds." (pp.136-137)

The supposed factual basis for this conclusion is that the Halabja victims had blue lips, characteristic of the effects of cyanide gas--which Iraq was not believed to possess. Cyanide gas, a metabolic poison, would indeed produce blue lips, but they are far from being a specific indicator of its use. Nerve agents, which are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors that cause respiratory paralysis, would also turnvictims' lips blue. Middle East Watch interview with Dr. Howard Hu, Harvard School of Public Health, May 13, 1993. On Iraq's proven use of nerve agents against the Kurds during Anfal, see below footnote 10.

10 See Galbraith and Van Hollen, op cit. The February 1989 report by Physicians for Human Rights, "Winds of Death: Iraq's Use of Poison Gas Against its Kurdish Population," concluded that the injuries of refugees examined in Turkey were consistent with exposure to sulfur mustard (yperite). However, PHR noted, "Eyewitness accounts of deaths beginning within minutes of exposure...cannot be explained by mustard gas alone." The mystery was laid to rest in April 1993, when research on soil samples from the village of Birjinni, the site of a 1988 chemical weapons attack, showed the presence of trace elements of the nerve agent GB, also known as Sarin. See PHR-Human Rights Watch, "Scientific First: Soil Samples Taken from Bomb Craters in Northern Iraq Reveal Nerve Gas--Even Four Years Later," April 29, 1993.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL1.htm#P41_8395

"Lynette, you GOTTA learn how to sift between fantasy and reality, y’ hear?"

Don't we all?

Bruno said...

So Lynette, I take it that what you are saying, in your somewhat circuitous manner, is that the US has flip flopped on the issue of Iraqi use of gas in Halabja. IE - it is no longer the Iranians, but the Iraqis?

Convenient, isn't it? I mean, to be able to change one's opinions as the political climate changes?

FYI, my comment was less about culpability (since I believe Iraq was in fact responsible) than about Amreekan duplicity.

Bruno said...

But let me hasten to add that, Lynette, your engagement with actual research and thought out exploration of the issues is appreciated. Even though I disagree w/ 90% of what you say.

I really can't stand debating with a brick wall.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

"since I believe Iraq was in fact responsible"

"I really can't stand debating with a brick wall."

Strange, isn't it, how on some things we can agree?

madtom said...

"Lynette, your engagement with actual research and thought out exploration of the issues is appreciated."

Wait five minutes, or just jumpt to another blog, and he'll never have heard anything about it.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

"Wait five minutes, or just jumpt to another blog, and he'll never have heard anything about it."

*chuckle* Selective memory.

You know, TT should really get some smiley faces for his blog. They can enhance the conversation.

Tilo Reber said...

From John
"Yeah well Moron, nice to see you and let me add, whatever institutions that are being built are entirely unsupportable without the prescence of the occupier."

There is no occupier microbrain. The entire world recognizes the Iraqi government as sovereign. The coalition is now in the country at the discretion of the that sovereign government. Your overloaded, overused reliance of the term "occupation" is an attempt to hide the fact that you really have nothing to say.

"Whatever people support them are already branded and surely defined as traitors to their country!"

Let's see. That would be the minority of the Iraqis calling the majority traitors.

I would never engage in any "democratic" process under the barrel of a gun,

So, a bird brain like you would still have the Nazis running Germany and the Emperor running Japan. As for the people of those countries, they would now not accept anything but the democracy that was forced upon them at the barrel of a gun.

"and the credibility you assign to this process is really no different than Sadaams regime which you have already defined your abhorrence for! "

Now there is a stupid comparison if I ever heard one. Democracy is nothing more than allowing people to choose who will govern them. The only people who have to have such a concept forced upon them are people who don't want to give that choice to others because they want to rule themselves at the point of a gun or a Quran.

Tilo Reber said...

"FYI, my comment was less about culpability (since I believe Iraq was in fact responsible) than about Amreekan duplicity."

Yes, it's one of those things that you have to agree to when you apply for American citizenship. You have to allow them to implant a duplicity gene in your cells. Jerk.

Tilo Reber said...

Bruno said:
"Lynette, you GOTTA learn how to sift between fantasy and reality, y’ hear? "

Duh, let's see. What Bruno like to hear is reality and what Bruno doesn't like to hear is fantasy. Okay, got it!

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

" We have to rely on blatant phony liberal leftist reporting like this:"

Why, John, you finally wrote something accurate! lol!

Tilo Reber said...

"This last trip there was so dangerous and frightening, I actually said to some people that we were going to have to debate whether the risks are worth it all. "

Ah yes, the great Robert Fisk who lent his name to the term "to fisk", meaning to deconstruct an article for the nonsense that it is. Since every one of his articles goes through such a process, usually from numerous sources, "fisking" is now a part of our language.

"This last trip there was so dangerous and frightening, I actually said to some people that we were going to have to debate whether the risks are worth it all."

And I remember that some Afghans beat the crap out of Fisk at one time. Since he didn't know why, he made up the excuse that it was because of the Americans.

So, if it is such anarchy in Iraq, why did over sixty percent of the registered voters go to vote. Why where there only twenty attacks on polling places when there were over a hundred in January. Why were there absolutely no incidents at all at 99% of the polling places. Is that anarchy or is that simply a journalist with an agenda using hyperbole that would shame a professional liar. Oops, scratch that. Fisk is a professional liar.

Let's take another example.

"By midday there were 26 corpses. When I managed to get access to the computer system of the mortuary, I discovered that in July 1,100 Iraqis had been killed in Baghdad alone.
"Multiply that across Iraq and you are talking about 3,000 a month or more, which means 36,000 a year.

The insurgency is active in about 20% of the country. In the rest of the country virtually nothing is happening. So using the Baghdad numbers and pretending that they apply to the rest of the country is about as dishonest as the Lancet study itself was. One could go to some of the cities in the south of Iraq, run Fisk's stupid little experiment, and conclude that less than a thousand Iraqis were dying violently every year.

And let's not forget another factor. Saddam killed 300,000 of his own citizens. And that doesn't count the Iranian war losses. So Saddam was executing his citizens at a rate of about 10,000 per year.

Tilo Reber said...

Hey Truth Teller,

I see that your favorite book is the Quran. Tell me the truth then, is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Tilo Reber said...

Johninnz:

It should come as no surprise to you that there were Fisks and johninnzs after WWII and their crying sounded much like yours. Check this article.

http://www.kultursmog.com/Life-Page01.htm

And I doubt that Fisk knew what kind of numbers he was looking at. They may well have included deaths from natural causes, accidents, and common criminal activities. A city of five million is going to have a lot of those. Since Fisk never provides evidence, his numbers are useless.

We could have squashed the lawlessness and the insurgency by practicing the same kind of brutality as Saddam. But we decided that was a bad long term approach. By the way, the crime rate in the Soviet Union went through the roof after the fall of Communism. And it's taking forever to get it back. The crime and genocide in Kosovo went on after we defeated Milosovic. It was simply redirected against the Serbs. The international peacekeepers stood around with their thumbs up their butts while the Serbs were run out of Kosovo. And we still have a presence there after all this time. So if Bush's operation is incompetent, who do you see that has done it right?

Tilo Reber said...

johninnz:

"My suspicion remains that even a lesser amount of brutality is fueling the insurgency."

If brutality is the driving factor, then why are the insurgents not shocked at their own brutality in bombing markets of civilians, unemployed looking for work, shia religious gatherings, commercial neighborhoods, etc? Why are they so fond of filming and displaying beheadings? Obviously an adversity to brutality is not their motivating factor. If anything, they have a love of brutality and they feel that those who use it best deserve the most respect. People like you whine about motivating insurgents with things like Quran desecration and pictures of naked prisoners. But let's take a look at the behaviour of the Islamists who are supposedly shocked at this.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011994.php

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

And here is another one covering the behaviour of Hamaz in Gaza after the turnover.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/columnists/jgurwitz/stories/MYSA101905.02O.gurwitz.11859e21.html

Now, do you really believe that these Islamists have such refined sensibilities that they are motivated by what we do, or are they just using that excuse to try to implement their goal of a theocracy?

By the way, what do you think the odds are that TT will be willing to engage in a discussion that exposes his real views and motivations?

Tilo Reber said...

johninnz:

One more question. You describe the insurgents as patriots. Tell me, did the American patriots bomb other American civilians when we were fighting to kick out the British?

madtom said...

"So when are you going to start doing it?"

Never, as a matter of fact, and we never intended to "do it". That's up to the Iraqi's themselves. All we can do is shove our foot in the door so it don't close on them. But they are the only ones that can up and walk through.

Tilo Reber said...

"In my opinion the real fuel for the insurgency is not the actual presence of the US soldiers but the political outcome of their policies."


Can't agree with you. The insurgents are not interested in having their fair share of the power, they are interested in having all of the power. Zarquawi stated outright that democracy was incompatible with Islam. And of course the Baathists want all of the power with the Sunnis being the dominant class.

The Shia as a religious group make up the lions share of the population and so deserve a lions share of the power. Later, when things are more settled the Shia will find that there are issues that are more important to them than their religious affilitation and they will split their vote accordingly - as will the Sunnis and the Kurds. The result of seeing Al Sadr's heavy handed policies is already changing minds in the South. And there are many Sunnis who are turned off by the religious extremism that they see in their own ranks. I think that you will see the power of the religious parties dimminish slightly in the December elections and then more as time goes on.

Tilo Reber said...

Johninnz:

"I can’t even be bothered reading your stuff about Gaza or wherever, it’s got nothing to do with the US conquest of Iraq, which is the subject under discussion."

It's got everything to do with the insurgency. The Zarquawis of the world are motivated by the same religious extremism as Hamas. And they are equally insensitive to brutality. Read the article or not. Your comment about being motivated by US brutality is still nonsense.

"What are you gonna do, keep blaming them all for the actions of a few extremists,"

How many is a few? And what about the people who support the extremists like TT. Are they also a few? What about the Imams that preach hatred for the infidel in their mosques. Are they also a few. What about the Muslims who go to those mosques and say nothing while their Imams are preaching hate. Are they also a few?

"and bully them all into becoming Christians? "

Why would I do that. I have no religion. Does exposing a religion as being a source of violence mean that you have to be an advocate for another religion? Wake up.

"Once again, point to something I’ve said which indicates support for anyone, Muslim or American, bombing civilians."

You called them patriots.

"the insurgency has become more of a patriotic resistance than anything else."

A patriot does not bomb his own civilians. They are not a patriotic resistance as you stated.

"Most US casualties seem to be caused by IEDs, which aren’t aimed at civilians "

We are not talking about US casualties. An Iraqi patriot could fight the US and still be a patriot, even if he was a misinformed one. He could not, however, purposely bomb and murder women and children and countrymen simply to terrorize them into accepting his power. He would not bomb his nations infastructure in order to make his own countrymen suffer. That is not a patriot. So your point about the insurgency is just plain wrong. It does not consist mostly of patriots.

"Unless your argument is: Muslim extremists bomb civilians, therefore we might as well bomb civilians too."

And you are crying about what you didn't say? Where does that come from?

"Incidentally, my understanding is that most of your "American patriots" were only one or two generations removed from their British or European roots."

That didn't stop them from putting bullets in them.

"There’s just a tiny difference between a colonial revolt against Monarchist rule, and an indigenous resistance against foreign invaders. "

This has absolutely nothing to do with bombing your own people and with the insurgency being or not being patriots.

Bruno said...

Hurria --

Sorry, I didn’t realise that term was offensive to you. I don’t see what is so weird about what I said. There WAS a battle for the control of Fallujah. Unless this has to do with the US subverting and appropriating the language of debate, as they have done before. In which case I apologise. What term do you prefer?


Johninnz –

(1) GET MORE RAM.

(2) The US machinations in Iraq are hard to understand unless one views it from a Neocon perspective. The believe that they can ‘create their own reality’. Ergo, if Iran is getting too much toehold in Iraq, the answer is either to remove Iran or change the nature of its influence.

I fully believe that there will be extensive covert operations within Iran to overthrow the current regime (I’m thinking MEKA here) or failing that, an outright invasion to ‘liberate’ all those democratic liberals yearning for freedom there. That move would be disastrous IMHO, but its coming. At the very least, there will be a solid bombing campaign. Let’s hope I’m wrong.

Tilo Reber said...

From the internet dictionary:

patriot

n : one who loves and defends his or her country [syn: nationalist]

If it's the country that is being defended then it must be defended from some threat. The only threat that one can imagine the insurgents fighting is the threat to Iraqi sovereignty. But since the US has been consistenly moving power over Iraq to Iraqis this is nothing more than an imaginary and propagandistic threat. The Iraqi public has exercised their freedom to choose a leadership and that leadership has asked us to stay.

Now, consider the possibility of a different kind of nationalism. One that does not involve a nation, but rather a threat to the entire Islamic Ummah. If your world view is that the world of Islam must be defended and even expanded then you have a solid justification for fighting both against the US and against other Iraqis - even the majority of Iraqis. Your concern is no longer Iraq as a nation, but rather the nation of Islam, the Ummah. And if Iraqis behave in such a way as to be a threat to Islam, then they may be killed.

If you look at what is happening in Iraq it is easy to see that there is no threat to the nation. In fact, as a nation it will be much better than it was under Saddam. But the threat to Islam and the worldwide cause of Islam is extremely real in Iraq. This is the case from two directions. Those who believe that the Sunni Islam is the only pure Islam are threatened by any power that might revert to Shias. But the bigger threat to Islam lies in democracy. Islam has always lead through force and intimidation. For example, when the prophet died many of the tribes on the Arabian Peninsula fell away from Islam. Mohammed's successor Abu Bakr was forced to go to war against these tribes in order to regain control over them.

Democracy means three things that are feared by the Islamists. It means that there will be a higher level of education in the country, there will be religious choice, and there will be freedom to express opinions that are counter to Islam. Islamists know in their heart that such a transformation would lead to the death of Islam, much like it has lead to the death of Christianity in the west. And if it happens in the heart of Islam, the Arabian penninsula, they fear that it will be contagious and that the Islamic state that they long for will die.

And that is why the fight for Iraq is so intense and so bloody. And that is why we must win it if we want to beat the terrorists in the long run. This is also why the argument that there were no terrorists in Iraq before the invasion is irrelevant. The Islamists of the world can be defeated here as well as anywhere else, because they are not nationalists. As for the US, we could hardly hope for a better battleground for fighting this war. But I'll explain that sentence at another time.

waldschrat said...

Time Magazine, a well established news magazine in the US, had an article about election irregularities.

Link: "Stealing Votes in Iraq"

While the referendum vote was not perfect, it seems to have producerd the result which was anticipated by legitimate estimates made in advance of the election: strongly Sunni provinces were the only area where significant opposition to the new constitution was found (as expected) and despite the strong Sunni efforts there were insufficient "No" votes in two provinces (as expected) to muster the required "2/3 in 3 provinces" majority needed to veto the constitution. In other words, everybody cheated every chance they got but the results were probably legitimate and would not change in a "perfect" election: the constitution passed (as expected).

Giubotte. said...

Dear Truth Teller,

why don't you kick out this rabid sectarian loony 'tilo reber' (10/21/2005 08:17:00 PM), who blatantly denies reality ("the threat to Iraqi sovereignty. But since the US has been consistenly moving power over Iraq to Iraqis this is nothing more than an imaginary and propagandistic threat") and incites to hatred and to a world war against all Muslims? (and if he were inciting hatred against the Jews or the Christians or the Buddhists it would be precisely the same, in my eyes).

Tilo Reber said...

"Tilo Reber has revealed himself to be some kind of "perpetual war on Islam" nutcase"

One of the things that I find interesting about the secular left is that they patronize, to no end, Islamic fascists while at the same time ridiculing and berating Christians in their own country who are far less radical about their religion. TT says that his favorite book is the Quran. If a blogger in the west said that his favorite book was the Bible, the left would accuse him of being an intolerant, bible thumping televangalist.

"he has a vision of the West countering "terrorism" by bringing "democracy" to the Islamic world at the point of a gun."

The Americans and the Brits brought democracy to the Germans at the point of a gun. And the Americans brought it to the Japanese at the point of a gun. Would you also like to reverse those results.

The idiocy of your statement is that we are forcing democracy upon a people who don't want it. You have to be blind not to see the Iraqis marching to the polls to cast their vote, without an American gun at their back, and then to claim that they do not want democracy. The guns are here not to force them to take democracy, but rather to allow them to have democracy when there are others with guns who would deny it to them. People don't have to be forced with guns to take democracy, but they are forced with guns to accept radical Islam. Being the hypocrite that you are, however, you have no objection to that kind of force.

"He’s not contributing anything useful to the discussion."

Meaning that your are too dumb and too cowardly to deal with me point by point and so you would like to see me gone so that I don't expose your sloppy reasoning.

Giubotte. said...

@ 'tilo reber', 10/22/2005 08:29:19 AM.

Well, Truth Teller may like his Quran, but he does not call for any Jihad (in the sense of 'holy war'); he is instead a secular Iraqi patriot.

But you keep denying that there is, or that there can be, ANY such thing as Iraqi patriotism. You keep saying that the Iraqis fighting your occupation troops cannot be Iraqi patriots: they must be fundamentalist Islamic fanatics! Why?

So, you deny that Iraq is a nation (like any other), and deny the Iraqis the right to defend themselves against an invader and its minions. Because, so you go, the Iraqis are Muslims; so there is not any Iraq, but just the Ummah; and they are fighting because of religion (& so they are all religious fanatics), and not for their country.

And than, you abominable sectarian fanatic, you incite to some unholy war against the whole Islamic world, with funny comparisons like "The Americans and the Brits brought democracy to the Germans at the point of a gun".

Now, the Allies just RESTORED democracy in Germany (didn't bring it); and, what's more important, Germany was precisely a nation, not a worldwide religion like Islam. Whose business is 'to bring democracy' (at gunpoint) to a religion? Why did you choose Islam rather than, say, the Catholic Church (since I belong to this latter, of course I would defend it in arms; and for sure it is one of the further targets of you US loonies, like most organised religions on earth: it's not that the world religions are not 'democratic', it is that they are not 'US-compatible' enough).

As for the post of Truth Teller about the referendum (and your cheeky "You have to be blind not to see the Iraqis marching to the polls to cast their vote"), before talking about 'democracy' you should wash your mouth, you hypocrite: they did go and vote AGAINST the Iraq-destroying 'Constitution', but - surprise, surprise! - the result were completely rigged! Is that the 'democracy' you are bringing around, at the point of a gun?

Aren't you a rather inept inciter to sectarian religious hatred?

Tilo Reber said...

Johninnz:
"Tilo, although you quote this, you do not seem to refute it in any way."

I'm suppose to refute your calling me a nutcase. I'll just let you do it.

"You are presumably aware of the invalidity of the "ad hominen" form of debate - where one attacks one's opponent personally rather than addressing their argument.
It is generally frowned upon in serious discussion"

Now, if you want to talk about the specifics of anything that I have said, I'm always ready. When you choose to make broad generalizations that are mischaracterizations, then why should I waste my time?

madtom said...

"everybody cheated every chance they got but the results were probably legitimate"

Did they mention what a terrible president this sets for future elections? I guess the election workers are now well trained in the workings of a "free and fair" election, we know it was plenty free, free to cast multiple ballots.
I call it a disservice to those who paved the way, and the future of Iraq democracy.

Giubotte. said...

@ Stukasdad, 10/22/2005 08:02:37 AM (& all).

"I find it interesting how it is always the ones who demand 'tolerance' and those concerned for the world in the face of American fascism who are the first to call for the banishment to 'Siberia' of the ones who dare to differ with them and their 'collective' concepts.", etc.

Now, dear Stukasdad, you very well know that I haven't got the highest regard for you, but... you definitely are not a troll. You are not a troll, because you engage in the debate, you generally stay ON topic, etc.

What you wrote is a slight to your own intelligence you did by yourself. Now, this 'tilo reber', like that 'ertejaa' before him, IS instead a troll. He didn't write a single word about the subject of Truth Teller's post (the referendum on the 'Constitution'), while instead spewing out his general delirium and attacking other posters. Can you call him a 'dissenting' voice? No, he's somebody who came to TT's blog just to disrupt ANY meaningful discussion of the constitutional referendum.
Would it be 'undemocratic' for TT to ban him? Apart that a blog is not a democracy, and TT is the owner and sovereign of his blog, it is clear that this 'tilo reber' has nothing at all to contribute to the debate, apart from screaming loud his sectarian & hateful hallucinations.

As about the subject of TT's post, the referendum on the 'Constitution', it is getting more ridiculous and sinister day by day.
On the ballot there were just two squares, one for the 'YES' and one for the 'NO' (so the votes are not very difficult to count); and now we are told that the results won't be released before Monday! Thirteen days to count some eleven million votes!

By now even a dunce would know that there's something more than fishy there: i.e., that the referendum was completely RIGGED.
If the referendum was a FRAUD, it is quite obvious that the next elections will be a FRAUD as well.

Now, Stukasdad, are you still of the opinion that your children are in Iraq to bring 'democracy'?
Do tell us, please.

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