Thursday, February 23, 2006

What happened in Samarra

Ziad Khalaf write an article about what happened in Samarra.


The truth is still a mystery. Iraq for all news published the "strange" statement of the Interior Minister explaining what happened.

The Interior Minister has issued a statement (In Arabic) stating that "the terrorist unit controlled the shrine on Tuesday night, February 21, 2006 at 7:55 p.m. (local time)" but that "the two bombs exploded on Wednesday morning, February 22 at 6:40 a.m." while stating that "the shrine is guarded by 35 police guards".

The Interior Minister statement (in Arabic)

وزير الداخلية يصدر بيانا حول تفجير ضريحي الامامين علي الهادي و الحسن العسكري في سامراء
و كالة الاخبار العراقية : : 2006-02-22 - 18:49:02


وزير الداخلية يصدر بيانا حول تفجير ضريحي الامامين علي الهادي و الحسن العسكري في سامراء

22 شباط فبراير /و.خ.ع/ بيان / داخلية :

اصدر وزير الداخلية بيانا بخصوص تفجير ضريحي الامامين علي الهادي و الحسن العسكري في سامراء فيما يلي نصه:

"في كل يوم يبرهن الطائفيون التكفيريين الإرهابيون ومن يقف وراءهم بأنهم أعداء الله والإنسانية فقد قامت مجموعة إرهابية مساء الثلاثاء 21/ شباط في الساعة السابعة وخمسين دقيقة أحدهم يرتدي ملابس عسكرية مرقطة وثلاث يرتدون بدلات سوداء وسيطروا على ضريح الإمامين علي الهادي والحسن العسكري عليهما السلام وقاموا بوضع عبوات ناسفة داخل الضريحين المقدسين.

وفي الساعة السادسة و40 دقيقة صباح هذا اليوم 22/ شباط تم تفجير العبوتين مما أدى إلى هدم القبة بشكل كامل وجزء من الجدار الشمالي للضريح وعلى الفور تحرك لواء المغاوير في سامراء إلى محل الحادث وتمت السيطرة على الموقف.

وتود وزارة الداخلية أن تبين أن قوة حماية الضريح تبلغ 35 عنصر من قوة حماية المنشآت

إننا في الوقت الذي نستنكر فيه مثل هذا العمل الجبان الذي استهدف مقدسات المسلمين في مشارق الأرض ومغاربها ندعوا الجميع إلى توخي الحذر في تصرفات هؤلاء الطائفيين التكفيريين الذين يحاولون الإساءة إلى العراقيين الشرفاء والنيل من الوحدة الوطنية وعلى الفور شكلنا لجنة تحقيقية للوقوف على مجريات الحادث وسيتم إشعاركم بالاجراءات

I personally feel very sorry for this criminal action, and condemned who planed and who executed this act.
Till now there are more than 160 mosques attacked and some set to fire by men in black, claimed they are belong to the Mehdi army ( armed militia under the controll of Moqtada Al Sader). Tens of dead bodies were found at different places near Baghdad.

Congratulation America you did what you are came for.

56 comments:

Indigo said...

Yes, the Americans created the conditions in which this could happen. And the British went along with it (although I believe that everyone now in the UK government wishes s/he could turn back the clock).

Also, I happen to believe that the destruction of the shrine at Samarra is the result of American PSYOPS (strategies and operations intended to influence attitudes and behaviour and attain the aggressors' desired political and military objectives). From the US point of view, if the Iraqi population is either killing each other or hiding at home, that frees up American time and resources for building those vast new military bases (eg at Balal) and protecting the OIL.

Claude Dorsel said...

All in Iraq - please don't fall in that trap !

B Will Derd said...

Support and cheer on the insurgency, condemn the consequences that flow from the enviornment their actions create. The trend continues...

madtom said...

Congratulation America you did what you are came for.

I'm not really sure what it is you referring too TT, What benefit could any of this bring to us, the US and coalition forces? If a Sunni v Shi'a civil war breaks out in Iraq, it's likely to spill outside Iraq's borders into wider regional conflict, something that puts many of our friends and allies in the region at great risk, not to mention the worlds energy supplies and the worlds economy. Please explain to me again how any of this would be to our benefit?
Now the terrorist they win all around. Now in the every short term I could see how if your friends in the insurgency started shooting at other Iraqis, ( like if they were not already) but on a grander scale some might think that this would be good for the coalition. But only to very short sighted people. Chances are this would double our casualty rates really fast, as we would get caught in the cross fire, so again there is nothing for us to gain with these tactics. Help me understand

Anonymous said...

Your anger causes you to misplace your blame and I forgive you for that. It is unfortunate that so many will rally to similar ill-conceived statements such as yours and consider themselves correct and of wise character. I wish you nothing but happiness and prosperity, but losing the forest for the trees will only leave you an empty, angry husk. Hopefully this comment will be approved and lend your comments section a wider perspective.

The Mixed Bag said...

As an avid reader of your blog, and a follower of the events in your country, it is distressing to see the damage to the Askariya shrine. I can't comment on the specific issues of Islam - As a mixture of German, English, French and Maori origin I am a secular agnostic, a follower of the notion that we are the masters of our own destinies, so my concern is for the people who feel a deep loss, at Samarra, and through Iraq and beyond, where these latter-day Vandals [the original Vandals were possibly some of my ancestors] have ascribed to themselves the right to put their self-interests beyond the rights of the vast bulk of the people, of whatever their background. I see the destruction of the Buddhist shrines in Afghanistian in the same light.
At some time, as a humanist, I believe we have to move beyond this primitive state of mind to a state where the zealots have no oxygen, and the cause of humanity transcends the boundaries of the opportunists.

Anonymous said...

I am American and don't believe that Americans came to Iraq to destroy mosques/shrines. I was sad to see such a beautiful building be destroyed. However,
I don't think the US government should pay a penny to pay for the reconstruction of a mosque or shrine because the US government doesn't pay for church construction in the USA. Recently, a bunch of Baptist churches have been burnt to the ground by criminals and I'm sure the US government is not paying to rebuild them.

Truth teller said...

A testimony of two witnesses from Samarra about what happened in the night of the accident. http://www.iraqirabita.org/?do=article&id=3060 and http://www.iraqirabita.org/?do=article&id=3061

To madtom

I'm not really sure what it is you referring too TT

I asked you to read those articles http://abutamam.blogspot.com/2005/09/phoenix-and-salvador-option-non.html
and http://abutamam.blogspot.com/2005/06/cia-terrorism-in-iraq-who-us.html

Albatroz said...

madtom,

If I may be allowed to interpret TT's statement, he didn't say that all mayhem in Iraq is to the benefit of Americans. He said that you have accomplished what your actions in Iraq necessarily had to result into. By coming into Iraq, by destroying the previous government, by waging war against people in Iraq, sooner or later you would cause the country to fall apart. If there is going to be a civil war in Iraq that's because you interfered in Iraqi affairs. Without your invasion the shrine in Samarra would not have been blown up. You are right that none of this is to your benefit, but your President was too stupid to understand that his invasion would result in all this destruction, and that the US would be worse off without Saddam Hussein than with him.

madtom said...

TT I urge you to read those very same articles you reference as they better describe the tactics used by the "Insurgency than anything the coalition has done.
And maybe you need to be reminded that it was the US that discovered and reported on torture chambers used by the Interior Ministry, which by the way were very similar to those found in Fallujah after we took the city. Not to mention the partisan nature of that website.

Just remember that in a world governed by free speech it's "buyer beware", which means you cant believe everything you read. I mean for starters the war in Iraq and the war in El Salvador are nothing alike, nor are the regions. South and central America have like 0 global implications outside the canal zone, and even that is marginal at best. If anyone has studied and is implementing tactics from the guerrilla wars of central America it's the "insurgency".

Just as a reference to how valuable this source is read this. While reading that rag just think about the sharks in the Florida striates, and how fat they have grown over the last 47 years.

Anonymous said...

If Sadr and Badir militia start attacking Sunnis in Diyala, Salahaddin, Babil, Baghdad, the BIGGEST loser will be the Sunnis, and the BIGGEST winner will be the Iranians.

TT you have to think hard. For once put aside your Anti-Americanism reaction and look at the facts.

Do you want Iranians to be in Basra and Majnoon and Amarra and Kurds in Kirkuk and Mosul? That would be bad for you. That would be bad for the US.

What does America have to do for you to see the writing on the wall? You have free press. You have free and open elections. What else do you want? Get your civil society together and you will see the Americans leave. Nationalism never brought any bread to the table.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

First off my heart goes out to the Iraqi people at this time. The loss of lives and the history contained in those Mosques is indeed tragic. I hope you and your family will be safe. I shall pray for your people and yourselves. I can not understand how someone can attack a holy place of worship. This to me is beyond evil. Doesn’t matter the religion. Some things just aren’t done. Could you imagine the outrage if St. Peters Cathedral had been blown to bits ? There would be mass hysteria. Yet something like the Askariya Dome being destroyed and there is no world wide day of mourning. Something MAJOR passed away. And yet, one month from now it wont even be a blip on the sound bite of america. Again my heart goes out to the victims, the families and the people of Iraq. My prayers are with you at this time. I hope your Alla keeps you and your loved ones safe.

Some of the comments posted at the various blogs I read have truly sickened me. To all you pro war people: Where is your humanity ? Where is your forgiveness? You claim to follow Jesus yet you can not even keep simple commandments like “Thou Shallt Not Kill”. You rant on about Iraq, a place you have never been. You pretend to know more than those who live there. Where is your compassion ? Where is your very soul ?

Anonymous said...

I wonder whether these are the reports that Truthteller has posted in Arabic.
(from http/www.roadstoiraq.com)

The picture above shows Sunnis in Samarra demonstrating and condemning the bombing of the “Golden Dome”, the Imam in picture is a Sunni imam, you can tell from his white turban, Shiia imams wear a black turban.

I want the readers to know that for Samarra inhabitants, the mosques doesn’t represents a Shiia shrines only but represents the existence of the city also and they are very proud of them, even when the situation went very bad between Sunni and Shiia, Shiia pilgrimages to city never attacked by any group, it’s kind of unwritten code of honor.

Testimonies of two eyewitnesses near the bombed Dome:

Witness 1:

I live in a district very near to the mosque and I will tell you exactly what I saw hours before the bombing.

There is a daily curfew in our city (Samarra) starts from 8,00 in the evening until 6,00 in the morning, in the night before the bombing and just when it’s getting dark there was unusual activities by the ING in the area around the mosque, I heard their cars the whole night until next day in the morning.

The Mosque Guards testimony says: Four people with ING uniforms blind folded them and set the bombs.

The witness continues, so ask I you how could the terrorists enter the area which is usually surrounded by the ING and enter the mosque then runway without being got by the police?.

Witness 2:

Witness 2 gives more detailed information and the Americans connection to the events before the bombing, so I made it as timeline of the events.

My name is Muhammad Al-Samarrai, I own an internet-cafe near the mosque, I sleep in my shop because I am worry about my computers from thieves.

8,30 (evening) joint forces of Iraqi ING and Americans asked me to stay in the shop and don’t leave the area.

9,00 (evening) they left the area.

11,00 (evening) they came back and started to patrol the area until the morning.

6,00 (next day morning) ING leave the area .

6,30 Americans leave the area .

6,40 first explosion.

6,45 second explosion.

He confirmed again that the curfew starts at 8,00 (evening) until next day 6,00 (morning), INGs and the Americans will surround and patrol the city all that time.

Johninnz

Truth teller said...

John

The reports I posted in Arabic have the same details of those, but were from different eyewitnesses.

Anonymous said...

Remember this?
"There are some who, uh, feel like that, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is: Bring 'em on. We got the force necessary to deal with the security situation." - George W. Bush, July 2, 2003.
According to some reports, "the force" are mainly staying in their bases. But the Iraqi-imposed drastic curfew seems to have done some good. Too soon to tell yet?
Come on guys, admit it. This wasjust too hard for you all along.
And the cocky attitude of the idiot quoted above sure didn't help.
Johninnz

Anonymous said...

I am sure the ING and US soldiers patrol the mosque area every day, and leave about 6:30 AM every day. The criminals who blew up the mosque knew that and waited for them to leave before planting bombs. Otherwise it is risky to plant bombs at 6:45 AM, when half the neighborhood is awake. It would be done at 2 AM.

This is job of Iranians who probably paid Ansar-al-Sunna to do it. Remember, Ahmadinejad President of Iran, is a Quds hardliner and believes that apocalypse is coming and if enough chaos is created, Imam Mahdi the Messiah will appear and save the Shiites, the chosen people. What better than blowing up Mahdi's mosque to hasten his return?

Only Iran will benefit from chaos and civil war in Iraq. That is how Khomeini grabbed power in 1980. Sunnis will have to decide: Do they want democratic government with human rights and US leaving Iraq, or they want Iranian militia government and blackshirts going around and arresting Sunnis such as TT, like Iran did in 1980 - 1981 with 100,000 killed. It will be 1,000,000 killed in Iraq, and partition of Iraq. Sunnis will become refugees in their own homeland. Iran has Arabic speaking Quds brigade with military and guerilla training that it will send into Iraq. Have no doubts.

Moron99 said...

It was a trap meant to spark a civil war. With the passage of time we will inevitably learn who set it. It is a great tragedy on so many levels. The destruction of a 1000 year old of history in order to affect the course of a 2year old politic. The unneccessary tensions, death, and destructions that followed. Knowing that the true perpetrators will not be known until it is too late to prosecute them. Knowing that there are those amoung the Iraqi that would wish to start a civil war. Yes. It was a trap and a tragedy. What is important now, is that we can see who recognized the trap and avoided falling into it. Those who showed restraint and called for each sect to protect the other are the people who deserve our hope, our support, and our respect. They are the ones that can lead Iraqis out of this darkness.

Truth teller said...

b will derd
Support and cheer on the insurgency, condemn the consequences that flow from the enviornment their actions create. The trend continues...

I was thought that you have enough wisdom not to post such comment!! But I was wrong.

Truth teller said...

John

Every time I want to open this site ((http/www.roadstoiraq.com)). it open ((http://www.microsoft.com/)) instead.
I don't know the cause, but it seems to me that the US freedom did some thing to the link!!

Truth teller said...

Another Iraqi blogger published an article with interesting picture, the title of the post is "who bombed the shrines" at this address
read it with the comments if you have time.

Anonymous said...

Truth Teller - if the American soldier wanted to kill you, he would not shoot just 2 bullets. He would load his machine gun into your car. Obviously the shots were meant as a warning to you.

Then you say that "after the Stryker" passed me, he shot. Well didn't you know that because of SUNNI car-bombs, no car or truck is allowed to get close to a Stryker? I mean it is the fault of Al-Aqeda and Ansar al-Sunna to send suicide bombers at Stryker. So the Stryker has no choice but to shoot warning shots at anybody who comes close. Why did you have to drive so close? Why aren't you looking in your mirror? Don't you know the law? I mean it is difficult for an Iraqi to give way to an American tank. But believe me, it is MORE difficult for that AMerican soldier, when he witnesses a carbomb blowing up, or when he has to shoot warning shots at innocents, just in case they may be suiciders.

TT, if you were in the same tank and same situations with carbombs coming at you daily, YOU WOULD DO SAME THING. Be rational, and set aside your nationalism and hate of foreigners, and instead see what you can do for your country and see it become peaceful and establish civil society. The grab for power by Shiites or Sunnis is not going to work, and it will cause misery.

Khalilzad is trying to talk to the Sunnis. For heaven's sake, he is even a Sunni himself. Iraq is taking oil out of the ground for $2 a barrel and selling it to the world at $70 a barrel. Stop blaming the Americans for everything, even when the soldier must defend himself, you still blame him?

Truth teller said...

albatroz

Every thing is OK. Thank you.

Truth teller said...

Anon @2/20//2006 09:18:16PM

"Obviously the shots were meant as a warning to you."

yes, I know, it was a warning, two bullets passed few cm from my face were just a warning!! Did you believe that?
If you do, you are a real American.

I know again, it is my fault, I supposed to be dead now and not bother you by my complaints.

"Iraq is taking oil out of the ground for $2 a barrel and selling it to the world at $70 a barrel."

Make a simple calculation and you find that those money is not enough to satisfy the hunger of the politicians.
three years since the occupation, still there is no reconstruction, no electricity, no enough medicine, no gasoline, no Kerosine, no kooking gas, no diesle fuel, no clean water, and the most important of all, no security. What is the benifit of money if you could not enjoy it?

Anonymous said...

Well, the mosque bombing is looking to be an inside job:

On who is responsible for the recent bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra:

MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQ'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, the blueprint of that unfortunate event, the blueprints of Al Qaida in Iraq is there.

It's the same design, the same method, the same objective they wanted to achieve, which is a civil war. They wanted to drive a wedge between the two communities in Iraq, between the Shia and Sunnis. And they've been trying this for the last two and a half years and they failed miserably in this.

And I think also this is one of the most horrible, really terrible attacks on the doctrine, on the belief of the largest community in Iraq. And still, Iraqi people have proven that they've gone through this difficulty yet again and they have shown the Al Qaida and the outside world that they will never be driven to the civil war.

BLITZER: So when you say Al Qaida in Iraq, you mean Abu Musab al-Zarqawi? Is that right?

AL-RUBAIE: That's absolutely right.

It's the same organization of Al Qaida, this international terrorist organization, and one -- the branch of it in Iraq is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi leading this terrible attack, terrorist attacks against our people.

BLITZER: Have your security or police forces...

AL-RUBAIE: And against our -- and against...

BLITZER: ... arrested anyone?

AL-RUBAIE: Well, we have arrested 10 people. Four from the guards of the Golden Tomb (ph) shrine. And six -- there were in the city of Samarra, just moved in and rented a place. Six young people there. So we are investigating them.

We have a very -- there are two leads and these leads are very, very good in our investigation. And we will reveal this in the very near future, inshallah.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/26/le.01.html

Bruno said...

The tragic events of the past few days have finally laid to rest a fundamental lie that is being told to the world regarding the presence of the US military in Iraq.

* That lie is that the US is in Iraq for the sake of stability and to “prevent civil war”. *

Fact is, when the riots and sectarian attacks broke out in Iraq following the demolition of the Askariya Mosque, the US military was NOWHERE to be seen. They were basically watching the country burn down around them from the safety of the Green Zone and their barracks. It was the efforts of local communities and Iraqi leaders that managed to restore order and that managed to keep communities from being overwhelmed.

The complete inability of the US Army to ‘prevent civil war’ mirrors their inability to halt the looting in 2003. In the words of Zeyad: “In my neighbourhood, most side streets are already blocked by residents, and small teams with weapons are keeping watch at every corner.” No mention of US tanks, right?

Now, given that the US Army is completely unable to intervene in a “civil war” and indeed has no solution to Iraqis fighting each other except for letting them kill each other:

I ask the question: WHY IS THE US STILL IN IRAQ ?

Truth teller said...

anon@2/27/2006 06:52PM

I urged you to read this article and this article

MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQ'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER is directly responsible for this criminal act as he is the responsible for the national security. For more detail about his association with other incidence in occupied Iraq read this

Anonymous said...

Whatever, dude. This was all done by Iraqis. You had your chance, but refused to take advantage of it. Soon all the US troops are going home -- who will you blame then, huh?

Albatroz said...

It seems increasingly probable that Americans were behind the Samarra incident. Unable to control Iraq and faced with the prospect of Iraq being ruled by people close to Iran, the Americans seem to have chosen the path of total destruction. A long lasting civil war in Iraq would prevent Iraq from joining an anti-West coalition. Maybe time has come for shia Iraqis to join the war against the US occupation.

Anonymous said...

TT, how can this pro-Iranian Minister tell amongst all that rubble, that the bombers "drilled" holes in the concrete, when there is nothing left in the rubble? How can a hole packed with expolsives survive the explosion that brought down the building?

Anybody could bring 5 or 6 prepared artillary shells, like they do for IEDs, and plant them and wire them in 20 minutes. That is how they do it with IEDs.

This is obviously job of Iranians who had their servants Ansar al-Sunna do the dirty work. Only Iran and Muqtada Sadr benefits from civil war.

I think TT is really pro-Iranian and not a nationalist.

If this was done by Sunnis or Americans, they would destroy the 2 graves of 10th and 11th Imams - not the dome which has no religious value.

Anonymous said...

TT, do you think Sadr should be arrested or killed? He went to Tehran after the bombing. His Mahdi army destroyed 120 Sunni mosques, and killed many Sunnis.

Do you support this pro-Iranian traitor Muqtada Sadr?

Would it not be better to arrest all the Sadr people in Parliament, so that Sunnis and Allawi and Kurds and Shiite seculars can rule?

Albatroz said...

An interesting statement by a reputed American university professor:

"As a senior intelligence aid to former Coalition Provisional Authority administrator L Paul Bremer explained to a colleague of mine when asked about why US forces failed to rebuild in years what it took Saddam Hussein to do in months after the first Gulf War in 1981, "There's an old Arab proverb: If you starve a dog he'll follow you anywhere."

In other words, why bother fixing a country when your strategy is to break the will of its people so they accept a post-occupation system, tailored to US interests, that they would otherwise not tolerate? Indeed, with Bush on record saying that the United States would leave Iraq if asked to do so, a primary consideration of US strategy has had to be making sure that the Shi'ites and Kurds never felt comfortable enough to pop the question."

Sounds plausible, and fits American actions in Iraq.

Truth teller said...

anonymous@09:49:42

"I think TT is really pro-Iranian and not a nationalist."

you are wrong, TT is pro Iraq only.

"If this was done by Sunnis or Americans, they would destroy the 2 graves of 10th and 11th Imams - not the dome which has no religious value."

You are wrong again, the Sunni never think of causing damage to the holy places in Iraq whether those places are belong to the Sheeis or to the Sunnis. The 2 graves in the shrine are belong to grandchildren of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and they are as important to the Sunnis as they are to the Sheeis, they are important to every Muslim every where.

So niether the Sunnis nor the Sheeis did this crime. Who is left?
The Iranian? They are Sheeis. They will not do it.
The kurds? They are both Muslims, Sunnis and Iraqis. They will not do it.
Who's left?
-The American! and the occupation forces. They are not Muslims, and they have the motive to do it, not directly but by their agents in Iraq (the gangs they chose and trained to be their hands in performing the dirty missions)

-The Iraq's enemies, those who afraid from free, wealthy and strong Iraq. they are well known to every Iraqis.

Truth teller said...

anonymous @ 09:53:38AM

"TT, do you think Sadr should be arrested or killed? He went to Tehran after the bombing. His Mahdi army destroyed 120 Sunni mosques, and killed many Sunnis."

Very funny question. Sadr condemned the crime as soon as he heard about it.
There is no prove that his mahdi army did what you described.

"Do you support this pro-Iranian traitor Muqtada Sadr?"
I dont consider him a traitor. I support every anti-occupation Iraqi leaders.

"Would it not be better to arrest all the Sadr people in Parliament, so that Sunnis and Allawi and Kurds and Shiite seculars can rule?r?"

It will be much better if you stop asking such stupid questions.
Your questions mean one thing to me, provoke the sectarian and ethnic division, the ultimate goal of the American in Iraq.

waldschrat said...

Whatever the reasoning behind the current wave of violence it is a bad thing for Iraq. I can only hope that you (and others in Iraq) remember that not all Americans are bad people. Regardless of whether that is possible for them, Iraqis should strive for order and peace in any way they can, I think. Angry words are probably not the best way to do that, but I can understand anger when conditions are bad.

Albatroz said...

"I can only hope that you (and others in Iraq) remember that not all Americans are bad people."

If I were an Iraqi these words would make me feel a lot better... How reassuring it is to know that the only evil Americans are those who are in Iraq, and that all the others, who stayed behind, are nice people... Unfortunately Iraqis must face the bad ones, not the good ones... But maybe there is a way to make bad Americans good: just send them home...

Albatroz said...

I suggest reading the following article:

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060313&s=brecher

entitled, "Where are the good Americans"?

wade said...

I finally agree with you Dr. TT and thank you for being able to read the truth about Iraq.
George W. Bush is indeed stupid.. he was stupid for believing that a country without separation of church and state could have democracy.
He is stupid for believing that a country with factions, tribes or whatever you want to call them that have been fighting each other for years unless they have been under the rule of a tyrant to maintain stability would welcome freedom and democracy.
George W. Bush is the stupidist man on earth for believing that a country without a middle class which is essential for a functioning democracy would welcome liberation from a tyrant responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Oh that the tyrant were back in power building palaces costing millions of dollars while most of the people are living in abject poverty.
Yes Dr. TT, the Americans have caused all your problems in Iraq. I am sorry that I sent money to NGO in Iraq to build schools, buy sewing machines for Iraqui women so they could develop skills, buy soccer balls and toys for the children etc. etc. even though I am far from a "rich" American, I just wanted to help the people of Iraq.
Now I hope that the American soldiers will leave your country as soon as possible. Not one more American father, brother or sister deserves to die and leave their children orphans to help you or anyone else in Iraq to have freedom, and a future. May you and Iraq return to what you used to live under. It must have been so much better before the stupid Americans tried to help.

Claude Dorsel said...

No one is saying all Americans are bad. But a lot of them seem very gullible.

Claude Dorsel said...

wade, as far as I know only three countries in the world have formal church / state separation, France, Turkey and the US. It is not a necessary nor sufficient condition for democracy.

And Iraq used to have a thriving and well educated middle-class.

Do you really believe the US went into Iraq "to help the Iraqis" ?

By the way, any WMD found, yet ?

wade said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
wade said...

Claude,
Most democracies in the world have defacto, if not formal, separation of church and state by having a judiciary not based on religious law.
And your comment on Iraq's "thriving middle class". Don't tell that to the large majority of Shia who were living in absolute squalor while the dictator spent hundreds of millions on his palaces.
My wife lived near Kirkuk with her family in the 1950's while her father worked on a dam at Dubindikhan as the American project manager. She knew and loved the Iraqui people and said that we should never become involved militarily in Iraq.
I will believe her next time!
But I am gullible. I believed that stupid George W. Bush when he rationalized attacking Saddam to prevent a possible future attack ala Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds possibly with WMD. Please tell the hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Iranians and Shia that Sadam would never use WMD, he didn't have them, as they lie in their graves having suffered slow and agonizing death from poisonous gas...a WMD so terrible that it was outlawed after WW1.
And I was gullible enough to believe that stupid George W. Bush actually thought that freedom and democracy would be the outcome in Iraq after the military victory. So he did not prepare for an occupation that one of his generals said would take 350,000 American troops and sent only 160,000 instead. Is he really so dumb that he did not realize that he was getting us in the middle of an ongoing 30 year old civil war in Iraq interupted by the "peace" imposed by a ruthless dictator.
Dr. TT I do hope that you, your family, and all the people of Iraq will have a future of peace and prosperity. You and they deserve it after years of suffering.

wade said...

Claude,
Defacto separation of church and state is achieved in most democracies by having a judiciary not based on religious law.
As for the prosperous middle class in Iraq, please don't tell that to the majority of Shia who were living in squalor while the dictator spent millions on his palaces killing his opponents at his pleasure.
As for being a "gullible" American, I confess, I am!! My wife lived near Kirkuk in the 1950's while her father was project engineer for the Ameican company building a dam at Dubindikhan. She was very much against the invasion even though we supported George Bush politically.
I'll listen to her next time but don't tell her!!!
Instead, I was gullible: I believed George Bush when he said that he was attacking Sadam lest WMD be later used against his neighbors ala Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds or even America.
Now we know there were no WMD.... please tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Iranians and even his own Shia who lie in graves having died horrible deaths from poisonous gas which was outlawed following WW1.
I was gullible to believe that the dumb George W. Bush sincerely believed that freedom, peace and prosperity would immediately follow in Iraq after the invasion....so much so that he only sent 160,000 troops even though one of his generals (who was fired for the comment) said that it would take 350,000 troops.
Was the idiot Bush unaware that a thirty year civil war was already ongoing in Iraq with "peace" in the country only maintained by the most ruthless of dictators? When the dictator fell, so did "peace".
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Yes, Claude, I believe that most Americans initially supported the invasion out of fear of possible future attacks and the belief that the Iraqui people would have a better life with freedom from the dictator. I even thought that the pictures of smiling Iraqui children receiving toys and school books from American soldiers, obviously propoganda, were real so I sent money for the purchase of books, sewing machines, soccer balls etc. Boy was I stupidly gullible.
I have one more comment for Indigo who thinks that America is the most terrible nation on earth. Dear lady, there are 50,000 American graves at Normandy alone so that your ancestors would not have their skins turned into lamp shades and German would not be the language of the formerly "Great" British islands. Thanks for the thank you.
Dr. TT, I do wish you, your family and all the people of Iraq a better future without any American troops as soon as possible. Today would not be too soon.

Bruno said...

TruthTeller

[anonymous] “This is obviously job of Iranians who had their servants Ansar al-Sunna do the dirty work. Only Iran and Muqtada Sadr benefits from civil war.”

Truthteller, this sort of comment is why I despair for your future.

This ignorant, obviously pro-war commenter, seems to think that Wahhabist groups like Ansar Al Sunna are closely allied with Iranians, which according to Wahhabis, are apostates and should be eliminated. Not only this, but he displays astounding ignorance of the fact that Iran and Al Sadr distinctly LOSE through a civil war, since they have already won a solid victory through the political process which has handed Iraq to them on a plate.

Yes, these are your “liberators”, come on their steel horses to “liberate” you.

They don’t speak the language, understand the customs, understand the political landscape or much else for that matter – but that won’t stop them from achieving “liberation”.

What a joke.



[waldschrat] “I can only hope that you (and others in Iraq) remember that not all Americans are bad people.”

No, Waldschrat, Americans like you have demonstrated that there are indeed compassionate Americans who care about what happens to others. I admit this freely - despite serious differences of opinion I have with some of your stances.

Nevertheless, it will take a hell of a lot of Americans like you to make up for all the Americans like the ignorant, brainless yet opinionated, Anonymous who just commented above.

Anonymous said...

American commenters,
Come on gang. If TT says he thinks the US is the main problem and not Sadr or the Iranians,then we should consider leaving as soon as possible. He should know. We're playing a losing hand. We don't need 160,000 men to train Iraqi troops. And don't forget, they may not need our troops but they do need our money--I don't think they'd reject that.

'know when to hold em; know when to fold em'

Antar said...

kurds have a great deal to gain from by creating chaos in Iraq so they may turn around and ask the US to allow them to break away for good. I personally believe that kurds were responsible for the bombing of the shrine and the killing of Atwar as someone suspected that she maybe on to something. I also believe that both the turks and PM jafaari knew about the kurdish connection, hence the quick and unexpected visit earlier this week.

Albatroz said...

Anonymous,

Don't be naive. It is a lot more likely that the US need Arab money than the other way around. If Arab and Iranian oil producers decide to quote oil in euros instead of dollars you will soon find out about this economical reality. But it is good to see that you - and other Americans - are beginning to understand that your best move would be to go home. Just don't forget to pay for all the destruction you caused while in Iraq...

Anonymous said...

yes i believe that america want to help Iragi people to rebuild their country.to have freedom. to have the right to speak out.i dont think that we as american would come to your country to bomb your shrine i dont think that the us need arab money.us is there to help

Anonymous said...

The Truthteller has told us that Muslims would never commit such atrocities as this mosque destruction. So, we should all accept that and see where the blame must lie. Reading Arab history, we can only reach one conclusion about what the Truthteller says.

Anonymous said...

Cost of oil in Iraq is $2. After shipping it is $3. US is paying $65 to $70 for this oil, on the world markets, just like anyone else.

The only thing US wants from Iraq, that the oil come out of ground and be reliably offered to the markets.

Every penny of the oil goes back to the Iraqi GOVERNMENT and not the US. It is up to the Iraqi government to do what it pleases with the oil. It can build electric power plants, or it can put the money in the pockets of the ministers and powerful people.

US has brought democracy, freedom of the press, individual freedoms, market economy, etc. etc. to Iraq. US wants to see Iraq become prosperous and democratic, because that is good for the world, good for the US, and good for the Iraqi's themselves. It is a win-win on the road to modernization and progress.

Most Sunnis have realized this. But TT has strong religious tendencies and wants religious government. That is his problem. He thinks an Iranian style Islamic Republic or Afghani style Taliban state is superior to "equality for all, prosperity for all".

Sunnis are now realizing that the Shiites will destroy their mosques, and partition the country and give it to Iran. But TT is still thinking like back in 2003.

Hamed19

Anonymous said...

More proof that Iran is trying to partition Iraq. More Sunnis are speaking out against Iran and its agent Moqtada Sadr (who will defend Iran, but is attacking Iraqi Sunni mosques).

TT why are you supporting Sadr and those who wish to partition? Does Ansar al-Sunna support Iran?

"Iraq Sunni leader says Iran stokes sectarian war"

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/March/middleeast_March164.xml§ion=middleeast&col=

Truth teller said...

Anon.

"US has brought democracy, freedom of the press, individual freedoms, market economy, etc. etc. to Iraq. "

It is American style democracy, freedom of the press, individual freedoms, market economy, etc. etc.
You certainly know that there are no Kerosine, Gasoline, Cooking gas, and no diesel fuel, therefore there are no electricity, flourishing of the blackmarkets, increasing in the prices, deterioration of the public services, no construction, no repair of the damages to the buildings, roads, bridges which are affected by the war, sharp decline in the medical and health services due to lack of medications and appliances (could you believe that there are no Syringes, IV fluids, wound dressings and most of the medications in the public hospitals.), there are even no clean water for domestic use etc. etc. in Iraq.

What is the benefits of freedom if you could not get out of your house from fear of being shot by some body.
What is the benifits of democracy if the armed militias killed people according to their names under cover of the police and the US troops.(some names are specific to some religious group).

What really the US has brought, is the killing, the robbery, the kidnapping, the poverty, the destruction of the infra structures of the whole country plus the loss of security to the whole nation even to the people responsible for security.

Anonymous said...

click here


A really good, in depth article about Mosul over the last year and a half. Truthteller, if you have time, I would like your review.

Anonymous said...

TT - when the Stryker passed you, it was about 5 meters away. The Stryker gunner is 5 meters above the ground. Therefore a bullet coming towards your window will come at a 45 degrees down angle. How come such a bullet entering through the driver's window, as you say, will not hit the seat (or you), but will hit the window on the opposite side?

Your version of the story, does not seem to agree with reality.

And then if the American wanted to kill you, how come he did not shoot you when you came out of the car? Why did you come out of the car, when you think he wanted to kill you?

Truth teller said...

anon

The Stryker gunner is 5 meters above the ground.!!!
Either you are kidding or you did not see a Stryker before.

Anonymous said...

closer to 4 meters than 5, but the point is still valid, unless TT is driving in a monster truck. you have to be pretty far away from a typical vehicle to see through the opposite window because of the height difference.

a few incidents such as this I could accept as possibly true, but there is no way this is as widespread as you are reporting. i wonder if the insurgents aren't doing this as a tactic by firing at civilians as us patrols pass by to keep the locals from accepting us troops presence in mosul. it would be smart and cowarldy which fits their m.o., they know better than to fire on strykers by now. but of course tt doesn't think the insurgents ever kill citizens, so that theory can't be accurate.

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