Tuesday, March 15, 2005

Out of the hands of justice

Every day Nineveh TV show us a number of peoples arrested for the suspicion of being terrorists.
In the interview,most of whom confessed that they killed so and so, attacked the police centers and some even confessed that they rape many women.

Today in the news they show us that the police releases 118 arrested persons who were proved to be innocents.

Before I heard this news, I was talking to one of my patients, he lived in a village 20 km from Mosul, he told me this story:
"yesterday I visited one of my relative, who was arrested for suspicious of being terrorist, he appeared on the TV and confessed during the inreview that he killed so many people and did other offensive acts. When we asked him how did they released you and you did so and so, he answered that the police officers had tortured him and beat him almost to death, and dictated the answers for him befor asking them, and forced him to say that confession in the TV conversation."
This remind me in a note from one of the commenter to my post "In the hand of justice" who said "In the west it is believed better to release 10 suspected criminals than to mistakenly punish one innocent. Without indisputable evidence or testimony even the most evil and vile people are set free."

I want to ask him (the commenter) what he will say about 118 persons arrested and tortured and forced to confess of being did some things never happened?? . Are the people in the west differ from the people in the middle east??

BTW. I believed this story is true because, as I told you before, the assumed terrorists confessed killing some peoples who still alive, I know one of those who their names mentioned as being killed.
ps. We have a ministry called (Ministry of Human rights).!!!

Where are the human rights ??


waldschrat said...

I think justice is not perfect anywhere. In the USA a person who is arrested is VERY unlikely to be tortured by police. He may be insulted, and he may be subdued by force if he is violent, but no force will be used to make him say things he does not wish to say. Sometimes, in very rare instances, police here behave badly. Police who behave badly are punished, although their misbehavior may be hard to prove and the punishment may seem light.

The statistic of "better to release 10 suspected criminals than to mistakenly punish one innocent" is probably more theory than practice. In actual fact, approximately 90% or more of people arrested in the USA for a crime are later convicted of that crime in a court. It is hard to win in court arguing against the police, and a policeman will usually be believed more than a person he arrests.

However, the reason our police win in court may be that they do NOT arrest innocent people. Certainly, if my house is robbed I have no hope of the police finding the robber and returning what was stolen unless it is totally obvious who robbed me. If they COULD find the person and be certain he was guilty they would, but they will not search peoples houses simply they live nearby, they will not arrest someone without good evidence, and they will NOT torture someone to make him confess.

This makes it had to fight crime in the USA, and there is crime here, although it is not as crazy as Iraq. People own guns here, but there is a law against carrying a loaded gun in public. Few people do it, and there is generally no reason to. Once, many years ago, I was attacked at night. I escaped, and because I had more things to do that night I went home and got my gun. Later the same night a policeman stopped me. I was arrested. I was NOT tortured, but the policeman called me "stupid". I was released from jail without the gun the next morning. I never saw the gun again. The person who attacked me was never caught by the police. The people who have robbed my house have never been caught by the police. I have never met anyone who said they were tortured by the police. That is my experience with the police in the USA.

Sacramento, California

Mad Canuck said...

Hi Truth Teller,

There was a news story on the TV show "48 Hours" this past Friday talking about a man here in New York who was convicted of murdering his parents, based off a confession he gave after being aggressively interrogated - a confession he later recanted. Here is a link if you are interested.

There have been a number of other cases here in the US where a suspect, who was convicted based on a confession obtained during an interrogation, was later exonorated by DNA evidence that proved he couldn't have committed the crime he confessed to.

The point here is that a skillful interrogator can sometimes put enough pressure on a suspect to get him to confess to something he didn't do, even without using torture. What needs to be considered is whether the suspect was able to provide additional detail along with his confession that were not known to the interrogator (where the body was dropped, where the weapon was hidden, etc.), and whether there is other evidence (other witnesses, physical evidence, etc.) to corroborate the confession.


praktike said...

Truth Teller, who operates NinevahTV?

JJ said...

Ya know Doc, you seem to be bitchin about this gov't and what their doing but you kept your mouth shut when Saddam and his scum did the same thing and even worse.

No, arresting and beating a confession out of a person is not a good example of human rights. But what human rights did you have with Saddam? None. You kept your mouth shut and keep your eyes shut and went along with the program to save your own skin.

The difference now is that you CAN say something against your gov't and not fear for your life. Try publicly saying something negative about the terrorists operating in Mosul....you know what will happen to you and your family....its the same thing as you had with Saddam - nothing would change. Is that what you want to return to? I think not.

You ask is it different in the West, yes it is. We have the rule of law that we live by. Yes there are individuals in the gov't that violate that but they are but a small fraction of the whole. Iraq is just learning to live by the rule of law. You have 30+ years of rule by a butal dictator. He determined what the "law" was. The people who are in power and have authority now have to learn what is decent and right. They have to consistantly live by the rule of law.

Try getting with the program and stop complaining. Did you vote? Did you put it on the line and make your voice heard? No you didn't but now you find fault. What I'd like to hear from you is some condemnation of the slaughter that is taking place in Mosul at the hands of the terrorits in your area. I've heard none from you or anyone in your family.

You know, as all humans know, what is fundamentally decent and right. Stop sitting on the sidelines whining and throwing stones get involved and help make your country better.

Anonymous said...

meet the new boss
same as the old boss

-- "Won't get fooled again" by Pete Townshend

Anonymous said...

I don't think there is an idealogical answer to this.

Somebody is benefiting: By receiving money or political status or other favors. Or perhaps they are avoiding the threat of arrest or punishment for something they did or did not do themselves (now or in the former regime) by making these television shows.

Praktike asked a good question: Who operates NinevahTV?

Who is benefiting?

And who is paying for it?

-- Tilli (Mojave Desert)

Lynn in the US said...

Hi Truth-Teller,
I really enjoy reading your family's blogs and I feel for all of the suffering that you are going through. Especially the children that have never known peace in their lives. I hope that someday soon you all will be able to live with peace and security.

I am a bit confused with this last post of yours. Are you saying that people that are on the TV confessing to terror and murder are then being released? What then would be the point in torturing them to confess to crimes that they did not commit?

In a previous post you quoted "Other thing, is that the people here, accept any thing they heard, especially if this thing meets their wishes, or close to their believes." That is a scary thought considering that that is exactly the kind of person that the Bin Ladens of the world need. How in the world is it possible to have a whole culture of people who were never taught to think? How could a culture survive with that kind of mentality? As an educated person it must be very frustrating for you to be surrounded by so much cognitive laziness.

Truth teller said...

Nenavah TV is operated by the government.

lynn in the US
You asked I am a bit confused with this last post of yours. Are you saying that people that are on the TV confessing to terror and murder are then being released? What then would be the point in torturing them to confess to crimes that they did not commit?

Yes SOME of them were released because they were found to be innocents. The confessions on TV were a propaganda to the Iraqi police. they were tortured and forced to say what they did on TV.
Then We are sorry, it is all a mistake.

Jen said...

When I heard about the televised confessions, I was worried that they might have been forced.

Truth teller, now is not the time to become cynical, it is the time to act and demand good government. We all know that torture is not an acceptable tool of government, for any reason. You should write to your representatives meeting to draw up a constitution and demand protection from such abuse be written in to your constitution. Maybe get a petition to say that signed by many people.

And most of all, you must fight the terrorists. The only way you can hope to reign in government abuses is to have a government that is truly accountable to the people, a free press, and freedom to meet together and speak your mind. The terrorists only offer more war and tyranny, and no tyrannical government can ever be counted on to protect human rights, no matter what they claim. Democracies aren't perfect either, but in a democracy you get the chance to make changes and to correct bad policies.

This is why we don't fear our policemen in the U.S. We have a measure of power over them at the ballot box and in our freedom to demonstrate. Fight for these freedoms and they will pull you out of the grip of terror and violence.

Moron99 said...


It is I who wrote 10 innocents for one guilty.

All I can say is that I enjoy living in my Ivory tower and I hope that someday soon the average Iraqi can live in one too. It is easy for us Americans to say how things should be and it is hard for us to understand how things really are in less fortunate oarts of the world. Our great-grandparents spilt an awful lot of their own blood to build the tower we live in. I could go all high and mighty and pretend that America would never do this. But I would be lying. I'm not talking about a handful of deviants running around Abu-Grahib or the occasional neanderthal in our midst. I'm talking about kangaroo courts that tamed the west, southern justice systems that never sided with blkacks, and our own government during the civil war. Our country crawled through the mud long before we perched ourselves on this moral high ground. But here we sit now. And if you bring an Iraqi prisoner to a US institution, then the people of America will demand that he be treated with respect and justice. If it becomes known that he was abused at the hands of our soldiers, then we will demand answers. It wasn't always like this.

But - back to Iraq. Your government has routinely externalized the insurgency since June. I would not be surprised to learn that the nightly parade of Syrian confessions is 10% truth and 90% fabrication. They are doing this to avoid a backlash against innocent Sunni. Your tool to correct injustice is free media and free elections. Speak up. Vote. Take it to a newspaper. If there are no newspapers in Iraq that want to know the truth, then document the story and send it to western media. They live for the chance to expose scandal and corruption. The highest honor western media can achieve is to expose a corrupt government official or to expose an unknown injustice.

praktike said...

Truthteller, here is an article about the TV show.

It includes the following:
Mishan Jabouri, a Sunni tribal politician elected to the new national assembly on Jan. 31, said he had evidence that the confessions are bogus.

A constituent from Mosul wrote Jabouri last week to say that his brother appeared on the show on Feb. 22, and confessed to killing four men. But the names of the victims he listed were all relatives who are still living.

''All these deceased are alive and not dead. They are ready to stand in front of your excellency," Muthana Abdullah Khalil wrote. ''I don't know the reason that led my brother to these untrue confessions, but we are ready to bring the living dead in front of you to prove our allegations."

Abdurahman, the police colonel who provides the confession footage, dismisses such accusations. The judicial system will punish any police who torture suspects or elicit false confessions, he said, impatiently brushing aside questions about the treatment of detainees.

''Our work is being appreciated. That's the biggest objective," he said. ''People are demanding that the cruelest punishment be inflicted on those shown on TV."
Are you familiar with Mr. Jabouri? Wasn't he the man who declared himself mayor of Mosul when the regime collapsed? What do you think about him?

Moron99 said...


I've had a little more time to think. I see only one viable course of action. Iraq must use free media and equal rights to fight this.

You can't close the TV station or order them to stop or ask the government to censor programming. It would do more long term damage than good. Free media is essential to democracy. Free media is the attack dog of the people that keeps politicians from abusing power. Free media is a line that must never be crossed no matter how repulsive the television show may seem.

Use the justice system to demand that IP who violate human rights are punished. Use other free media outlets to expose the lies.

But - here's the hard part - is it really wise to expose the lies at this time? Maybe it is better for now that the people in Hilla hate Syrians and Jordanians.

Honestly, I do not think I am qualified to pass any judgement or advice on this. At best, my opinion is an uninformed effort that is incapable of understanding the complexities involved. Do you lie today to save lives but in so doing risk degrading lives in the future? Like I said, I like living in my ivory tower. My biggest moral issue is when the grocery store gives me too much change. Should I go back immediately or repay them on my next visit? My biggest threat of violence is if an acorn were to fall off a tree and strike me in the head. and yes, it gives me immeasurable joy that your grandchildren may someday have the things that we take for granted.

Expat said...

In actual fact, approximately 90% or more of people arrested in the USA for a crime are later convicted of that crime in a court.
Where did you get this statistic from? It sounds very high to me. Even if you are talking about people that actually go to trial not those arrested, 90% sounds unbelievably high to me.

Papa Ray said...


It is hard to know what to believe sometimes.

Can you find out if this story is true.


I would like to believe it is.

Papa Ray

慢慢來 said...